NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Well, I disagree with you're categorisation of how Russia came to be in control of Crimea.

Not sure what you think happened, perhaps you think they held a free vote in a referendum recognized by Ukraine, the UN and the majority of the world, then they went in is that your take on it?

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Yes, just as the world has stood up to the United States as we've been about attacking countries, particularly the ones that have not harmed us.

Ahh the 2 wrongs make a right argument.
Sorry not only is that not a good argument, what country has the USA secretly invaded (remember Putin denied troops in Crimea for the longest time and had them remove their identifying insignia to do so) then annexed?
Nope not even close to equivalent.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Yep, Iraq and Libya look so much better, their evil dictators having been stopped.

Iraq was stopped from taking over Kuwait, then little Bush went in for regime change. Not a good plan but not comparable to secretly invading then annexing parts of another country.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Wiggen said:
There's actually only one way Imperialistic Dictators can be removed from office. And that's feet first.

No they can hand it to a successor while alive though that is rare (Cuba) new head but same old repressive regime. Putin doesn't seem to have any obvious family member to pass the torch to though so he has to hold on for dear life, because well it is his life

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
Ahh the 2 wrongs make a right argument.
Sorry not only is that not a good argument, what country has the USA secretly invaded (remember Putin denied troops in Crimea for the longest time and had them remove their identifying insignia to do so) then annexed?
Nope not even close to equivalent.

Nope, not suggesting that, I would prefer to see unjust aggression always criticised, even when its our own government as perpetrators. But that doesn't frame the Ukrainian crises in which Russia has been the one responding to Western intrigue in Ukraine.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Russia is playing defense.

On what planet are you living?

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
Iraq was stopped from taking over Kuwait, then little Bush went in for regime change. Not a good plan but not comparable to secretly invading then annexing parts of another country.

Kuwait lol. Do you have any knowledge of the ways and means that Western powers have conducted nation building and redrawing of the map of the Middle East? Stop patronising US/Western policy in the region.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Nope, not suggesting that, I would prefer to see unjust aggression always criticised, even when its our own government as perpetrators. But that doesn't frame the Ukrainian crises in which Russia has been the one responding to Western intrigue in Ukraine.

No Putin invaded Ukraine after the puppet they had bought was kicked out by his own party.
Putin is 100% responsible for the mess in Ukraine right now, not the USA not Europe not Ukraine.
Stop trying to defend an evil dictator what he did was reprehensible and there is no way to justify or lie your way into pretending Putin is not at fault.

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
On what planet are you living?

Presumably the one you are.

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
No Putin invaded Ukraine after the puppet they had bought was kicked out by his own party.
Putin is 100% responsible for the mess in Ukraine right now, not the USA not Europe not Ukraine.
Stop trying to defend an evil dictator what he did was reprehensible and there is no way to justify or lie your way into pretending Putin is not at fault.

Um yeah, I understand your position, and disagree.

Blue_State · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Yep, Iraq and Libya look so much better, their evil dictators having been stopped.

I would prefer to use countries like Germany, Italy and Japan.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Kuwait lol. Do you have any knowledge of the ways and means that Western powers have conducted nation building and redrawing of the map of the Middle East? Stop patronising US/Western policy in the region.

Yes and you are trying the same failed argument.
but but but they did something bad in the past so it's ok if Putin get his piece of the pie now. Who gives a crap about the anything else.
Still waiting for you to show me how the USA secretly invaded and annexed Iraq and Libya.

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Um yeah, I understand your position, and disagree.

You can disagree all you want but you are wrong the facts are that Putin illegally invaded and annexed part of another country. He even admitted (much later and after the fact) that he did this.
Why are you defending an evil dictator? even when he admits what he has done?

Quag · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
Presumably the one you are.

Apparently not if you think Putin invading another country annexing part of it and trying to annex more is defensive.

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
Yes and you are trying the same failed argument.
but but but they did something bad in the past so it's ok if Putin get his piece of the pie now. Who gives a crap about the anything else.
Still waiting for you to show me how the USA secretly invaded and annexed Iraq and Libya.

Still waiting for you to quote me suggesting that they did.

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

Quag said:
Apparently not if you think Putin invading another country annexing part of it and trying to annex more is defensive.

I think I made myself clear when I informed you that I disagree with your characterisation of the events in Ukraine over the last year and a half.

blarg · Feb 5, 2015

MildSteel said:
I don't give a damn about that stupid Hilter rhetoric. Hell that's my money that's going to pay for that crap, AND IF IT TURNS INTO A NUCLEAR WAR MY CHILDREN, INCLUDING MY NINE YEAR OLD SON WILL DIE BECAUSE OF SOME STUPID THEORY THAT THE U.S. IS GOING TO CONTAIN RUSSIA PARTLY BY USING UKRAINE.

Over and above that, I am sick and tired of people trying to use the U.S. to fight their stupid little wars. Let them fight their own wars with their own money, own weapons, and own men.

o well your not me so who cares

MildSteel · Feb 5, 2015

Montecresto said:
And even the supreme allied commander of NATO forces has cautioned Western/US supplying Ukraine with lethal weapons on the potential for Russian backlash. You seem eager for another (or at this point isn't it just perpetual) war, this one a proxy with Russia not unlike previous such conflicts. Or do I misunderstand your position on that?

You totally misunderstand my position on that. I don't understand what I could have said that would give you that idea.

Montecresto · Feb 5, 2015

MildSteel said:
You totally misunderstand my position on that. I don't understand what I could have said that would give you that idea.

Well you have my apology then. If you don't favor another US war, and worse, one with Russia then you're on the high side.

face your · Feb 6, 2015

Montecresto said:
Russia is playing defense.

It was Russia that started all of this first with economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination which prompted peaceful protests supported by the majority of Ukrainians which resulted in a Russian puppet at the direct behest of Putin, sending in his jack booted thugs to attack and murder the protesters which resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory, then what happened next is Russia invaded, occupied, installed an occupation government with Spec Ops holding AKs and rocket launchers in the Crimean parliamentary building during the swearing in of a new Crimean "prime minister" and this was followed by the outright illegal annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory by the Russian Federation through a fraudulent and illegal referendum in which only two options were offered cessation or annexation rather than maintaining the status quo and which did not allow for the majority of Ukrainians to participate.

face your · Feb 6, 2015

Montecresto said:
Actually, a bit before that with the US involvement in the tragic events of Maiden Square and the support of the Nazi.

The only Nazi's in this equation are the Russian invaders and Yanukovych and his personal Gustapo the fascist Berkut jack booted thugs who murdered peaceful protesters in the street.

joko104 · Feb 6, 2015

MildSteel said:
I don't give a damn who starts a nuclear war, what I care about is that it doesn't happen.

Well, the the EU and USA should just go ahead and surrender, huh?

There have been many proxy wars between the USA and Russia - no nuclear war. BUT people like you always panicked fearing their would be.

No, Russians are not mass suicide insane and certainly not their mega-rich. There is no nuclear war potential.

Montecresto · Feb 6, 2015

face said:
It was Russia that started all of this first with economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination which prompted peaceful protests supported by the majority of Ukrainians which resulted in a Russian puppet at the direct behest of Putin, sending in his jack booted thugs to attack and murder the protesters which resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory, then what happened next is Russia invaded, occupied, installed an occupation government with Spec Ops holding AKs and rocket launchers in the Crimean parliamentary building during the swearing in of a new Crimean "prime minister" and this was followed by the outright illegal annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory by the Russian Federation through a fraudulent and illegal referendum in which only two options were offered cessation or annexation rather than maintaining the status quo and which did not allow for the majority of Ukrainians to participate.

Lol. No, but that's a good Western try.

face your · Feb 6, 2015

Montecresto said:
Lol. No, but that's a good Western try.

Facts are stubborn things.

Your assertions are chalked full of RT propaganda, half truths, and outright lies.

it was Russia that started all of this first with economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination:

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

This prompted peaceful protests to join the EU both of which were supported by the majority of Ukrainians:

Public opinion about Euromaidan

According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[126][127][128] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[126][129] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[130]

In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[6] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[130] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[131] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[130]

According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[132]

In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[133]

A study conducted at Harvard University examining public opinion in regular and social media found that 74% of Russian speakers in Ukraine supported the Euromaidan movement, and a quarter opposed.[134]

Public opinion about joining the EU

According to an August 2013 study by a Donetsk company, Research & Branding Group,[135] 49% of Ukrainians supported signing the Association Agreement, while 31% opposed it and the rest had not decided yet. However, in a December poll by the same company, only 30% claimed that terms of the Association agreement would be beneficial for the Ukrainian economy, while 39% said they were unfavourable for Ukraine. In the same poll, only 30% said the opposition would be able to stabilise the society and govern the country well, if coming to power, while 37% disagreed.[136]

Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favoured joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?"[137][138]

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.[139] On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[140]

In December 2013, then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov refuted the pro-EU poll numbers claiming that many polls posed questions about Ukraine joining the EU, and that Ukraine had never been invited to join the Union, but only to sign the Association Agreement.[141][142]

Euromaidan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The claim that the protesters were funded, armed, or directed by the US is absolutely false:

US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>

face your · Feb 6, 2015

<<<CONTINUED>>>

These initially peaceful protests resulted in a Russian puppet at the direct behest of Putin, sending in his jack booted thugs to attack and murder the protesters on November 30th 2013:

Putin pressured Yanukovych to crack down on the Maidan protesters. Ukrainska Pravda found that the notebooks of Yanukovych's security chief, Kostyantyn Kobzar, detail a private meeting between the two leaders at Putin's residence at Valdai on January 8, as the Maidan protests continued to grow.

What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled | New Republic

Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions
Violent dispersal of pro-European protesters sparks opposition demand for trade embargo

Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions | World news | The Guardian

The assertions that the snipers were protesters rather than Yanukovych Russian backed jack booted thugs is pure propaganda:

15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.

"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."

Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.

"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."

She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.

"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."

Ukraine crisis: March 5 as it happened - Telegraph

Ukraine's special police shot dead dozens of anti-government protesters in Kiev in February, an initial government inquiry has found.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told reporters 12 members of the Berkut police had been identified and three of them had been already arrested.

The inquiry relates to the shootings on Instytutska street in Kiev, where 76 people were killed on 18-20 February......

Meanwhile, Ukrainian Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko said that Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) operatives had been involved in planning operations against the protesters. ....

BBC News - Special police shot Kiev protesters, inquiry says

This resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory:

Ukraine’s parliament votes to oust president; former prime minister is freed from prison
Ukraine

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>[/QUOTE]