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Thread: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

  1. #121
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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And you don't even know what a strawman is!! You've been exposed as a fraud and a hypocrite, see ya.
    BS you spend all your time defending Putin and accusing the US of being evil
    I havent defended the US. I have only pointed out that the mess in Ukraine is 100% Putins fault.
    Hypocrosy is YOUR problem not mine.

    Go back to lapping up Putins lies and ignore the truth.
    Everything that happens in the world is the fault of the USA poor little misunderstood Putin robbing his people blind and secretly invading other countries is only doing this because the USA is bad.
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  2. #122
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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    BS!
    America isnt the one causing the problems in Ukraine, Putin is. Your enrtire view is skewed by your love of an evil dictator.
    Actually, I've never met the man. I assuredly do not love him, but I do hate the hypocrisy dripping from your fingers. Again, go lobby your government to confront Putin, if you dislike him doing what everybody else does, and quit criticising the US for not doing more! Hear?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Actually, I've never met the man. I assuredly do not love him, but I do hate the hypocrisy dripping from your fingers. Again, go lobby your government to confront Putin, if you dislike him doing what everybody else does, and quit criticising the US for not doing more! Hear?
    I haven't criticized the USA for not doing more, all I have done is criticize Putin for causing the whole thing and for invading and annexing part of another country.
    There is no hypocrisy in that.
    If you show me that the USA is invading and annexing part of another country I assure you I will criticize that as well.
    You however have falsely accused the USA of being behind everything and have steadfastly refused to condemn Putin the actual cause.
    That makes you the hypocrite.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
    Winston Churchill

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Lol...yes, this is the nonsense the West has peddled.
    Better than fascist RT propaganda. Regardless I didn't realize that the UNSC and UNGA were the west now.


    So, the referendum is illegal under Ukrainian law? So, all Ukraine has to do is state every referendum is illegal under their law and presto...no region can ever vote to breakaway. Even if 100% vote to leave? That's nonsense.
    It's illegal under the crimean constitution as well, territorial changes require a national referendum. By your logic a heavily hispanic neighborhood in California could vote to join Mexico without the rest of Californians getting a say.

    If a region voted overwhelmingly to breakaway, it is TOTALLY irrelevant whether it meets some arbitrary federal law. If 80-90% of a region (as was the case here, if I recall) wants to seperate...that is good enough for me.
    What decent human who believes in democracy and is in his/her right mind says that if 90% of a region wants to seperate from a country, that they should not be allowed to do so...regardless of the authoritarian laws of that country?
    This referendum was completely fraudulent, it was conducted under an illegal occupation, through, a foreign installed occupation government sworn in under the cover of Russian spec ops holding rocket launchers and AKs in the parliament building only two options were offered cessation or annexation, Russian citizens illegally voted in the referendum, and if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only had a 33% ethnic Russian population voted for annexation then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.


    As for the UN resolution...they were just rubber stamping Kiev's ridiculous law.
    Ah I see the UNGA and UNSC take orders from Kiev now.

    DUH...their leaders are terrified of this referendum becoming approved for it could fuel lots of breakaway regions in other parts of the world...so the UN countries obviously voted to squash this referendum out of fear, not justice.
    They voted against it because it was a war crime.

  5. #125
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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I haven't criticized the USA for not doing more, all I have done is criticize Putin for causing the whole thing and for invading and annexing part of another country.
    There is no hypocrisy in that.
    If you show me that the USA is invading and annexing part of another country I assure you I will criticize that as well.
    You however have falsely accused the USA of being behind everything and have steadfastly refused to condemn Putin the actual cause.
    That makes you the hypocrite.
    Tell you what, criticise this, and you and I can call a truce! And please, whatever you do, do not dare to attempt any justification of this!

    1954

    Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

    One of the paradoxes of legislative oversight of intelligence in the early Cold War period was that the United States Congress could give strong, if de facto, support of aggressive covert action while, with the exception of a few leaders, not really knowing which such policies were being carried out. Guatemala is a perfect example. Following its 1944 revolution, which brought democratically elected leftist governments to power, this Central American government faced an increasingly hostile neighbor to the north, the United States. Guatemala's treatment of US-based corporations, especially the United Fruit Company, in expropriating land and other assets, did nothing to improve relations.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v44i5a03p.htm


    There IS NO END to this type of US aggression all the while mouthing the merits of democracy, quite filthy. And your worried about Putin, lol.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 02-08-15 at 04:10 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Tell you what, criticise this, and you and I can call a truce! And please, whatever you do, do not dare to attempt any justification of this!

    1954

    Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

    One of the paradoxes of legislative oversight of intelligence in the early Cold War period was that the United States Congress could give strong, if de facto, support of aggressive covert action while, with the exception of a few leaders, not really knowing which such policies were being carried out. Guatemala is a perfect example. Following its 1944 revolution, which brought democratically elected leftist governments to power, this Central American government faced an increasingly hostile neighbor to the north, the United States. Guatemala's treatment of US-based corporations, especially the United Fruit Company, in expropriating land and other assets, did nothing to improve relations.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v44i5a03p.htm


    There IS NO END to this type of US aggression all the while mouthing the merits of democracy, quite filthy. And your worried about Putin, lol.
    While I fully agree this is wrong it has no bearing on the situation today in Ukraine.
    Putin is the aggressor he orchestrated the whole thing. How does bad behavior of the US govt in the past in any way excuse Putin's wrongs today?
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
    Winston Churchill

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    While I fully agree this is wrong it has no bearing on the situation today in Ukraine.
    Putin is the aggressor he orchestrated the whole thing. How does bad behavior of the US govt in the past in any way excuse Putin's wrongs today?
    Wrong doing isn't to be excused. I'm not advocating that. You and I have a disagreement on the matter of Russia's response to US interference in Ukrainian politics in the fall of 2013. My other point would be that even if we did agree that Russia was the provocateur in this crisis, until the US dispenses with its own provocative foreign policy, we haven't credibility in raising hell when we perceive others engaged in the same activity. This isn't just past behavior either. The US has more covert "operations" being conducted by special ops forces around the world, then at any other time.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Tell you what, criticise this, and you and I can call a truce! And please, whatever you do, do not dare to attempt any justification of this!

    1954

    Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

    One of the paradoxes of legislative oversight of intelligence in the early Cold War period was that the United States Congress could give strong, if de facto, support of aggressive covert action while, with the exception of a few leaders, not really knowing which such policies were being carried out. Guatemala is a perfect example. Following its 1944 revolution, which brought democratically elected leftist governments to power, this Central American government faced an increasingly hostile neighbor to the north, the United States. Guatemala's treatment of US-based corporations, especially the United Fruit Company, in expropriating land and other assets, did nothing to improve relations.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v44i5a03p.htm


    There IS NO END to this type of US aggression all the while mouthing the merits of democracy, quite filthy. And your worried about Putin, lol.

    Arbenz was a Marxist attempting to set up a totalitarian communist state and it had absolutely nothing to do with UFC:

    {I}n the past 18 years, researchers have gathered and analyzed new evidence, refining the interpretations of the Guatemalan revolution. Piero Gleijeses uncovered Guatemalan documents and interviewed prominent actors, most notably María de Arbenz, the widow of the deposed president. His book, Shattered Hope: The United States and the Guatemalan Revolution, 1944–1954, focused on the internal dynamics of the revolution, providing the intellectual counterpart to Immerman’s analysis of the Washington foreign policy apparatus. Gleijeses, an admirer of Arbenz, produced irrefutable evidence of Arbenz’s gravitation toward the Communist Party and ideology, shattering previous portrayals of Arbenz as an economic nationalist or reformer. He also reassigned a portion of responsibility to the Guatemalan military, which ultimately betrayed Arbenz and allowed Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas to march unopposed into Guatemala City. Jim Handy mined the archives of Guatemala’s Agrarian Reform Institute to produce a sophisticated analysis of Arbenz’s agrarian reform. Revolution in the Countryside demonstrates how Arbenz’s agrarian reform triggered conflicts far beyond the United Fruit Company (UFCO) and the United States government. The agrarian reform generated conflict within and between indigenous communities, alienated Guatemala’s landowners, and disturbed the Guatemalan military because it disrupted the order that had long prevailed in the countryside...

    ...While some of Bitter Fruit’s general conclusions may remain intact, recent research calls into question Schlesinger and Kinzer’s characterization of important events and people. They maintain their original position on Arbenz’s ideology, arguing that Arbenz’s primary ideology was nationalism and that accusations that Arbenz was a communist “dupe” were “farfetched”(pp. 60– 61). Their characterizations of Arbenz’s ideology and his program lose credibility in the wake of Piero Gleijeses. Based on interviews with Arbenz’s widow, José Manuel Fortuny and other Communist leaders, Gleijeses concluded that although Arbenz did not join the Guatemalan Communist Party until 1957, he considered himself a communist during the last two years of his administration.


    <continued below>>>

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia



    Arbenz apologists have long felt compelled to deny Arbenz’s communist inclinations to maintain the case against the CIA. Yet Gleijeses, an open admirer of Arbenz and his program, explains how and why Arbenz believed that the triumph of communism in Guatemala and around the world was both inevitable and desirable. To reach that stage, Arbenz and other Latin American communists believed that Guatemala had to pass through a capitalist stage in its inevitable evolution toward socialism. Hence, the agrarian reform was indeed designed to make Guatemala into a modern capitalist state, as Schlesinger and Kinzer argue, but that did not make Arbenz a capitalist. Arbenz’s long-term objective, as his opponents in UFCO and the CIA alleged, was the creation of a communist state.

    Schlesinger and Kinzer maintain some positions that are no longer tenable. They argue, for example, that the Czech weaponry carried on board the Alf hem and confiscated by the Guatemalan Army in May 1954 was “intended solely for the Guatemalan Army”(p. 153). However, Arbenz’s closest political associates have confirmed that a portion of the Alfhem weapons were to be used to arm workers’ militias. Schlesinger and Kinzer insist that the Americans trumped up the charges about the workers’ militias in order to prove their case about a communist conspiracy. But the Americans did not lie in this case; at least a portion of the arms were intended for the workers.

    None of this justifies the American intervention, but assessing responsibility for the collapse of the Arbenz regime hangs in the balance. In the Bitter Fruit account, the CIA orchestrated the counterrevolutionary movement on behalf of “The Overlord,” or the United Fruit Company. After an inept and bumbling covert campaign, spearheaded by a poorly trained army of only 150 men, Arbenz simply resigned. According to Schlesinger and Kinzer, Arbenz did not fight because “he was never more than he seemed to be—a bourgeois reformer whose ideology did not extend beyond basic precepts of nationalism and the stimulation of domestic industry and agriculture” (p. 19. It is now clear that Arbenz was a communist who did not fight because he did not have an army or workers’ militias to lead into battle. He failed in his gamble to arm the workers’ militias, and the army, even knowing that it would win, refused to fight because the officers did not want a direct military confrontation with the United States...

    ...Cullather also concluded that the United Fruit Company played a minor role in the decision-making process. He argues that the CIA recognized Guatemala as a serious threat even before Arbenz expropriated the company’s property. According to Cullather, “the threat to American business was a minor part of the larger danger to the United States’ overall security” (p. 37). In Cullather’s account, United Fruit is not the “overlord” of the operation but a tool used by the CIA to remove a perceived security threat. Once the company’s usefulness expired, the Eisenhower administration proceeded with its suspended antitrust action, which ended in 1958 with a consent decree that forced the company to divest of its Guatemalan holdings (p. 11.

    Cullather’s account is in line with recent research on the Guatemalan revolution. It is significant that Piero Gleijese wrote the afterword to Secret History, giving the account his approval by praising Cullather’s intellect and integrity. Cullather’s research in the CIA files confirms that the UFCO played a minor role in the Guatemalan tragedy. He prefaces his account with a quote culled from Gleijeses’ interview with José Manuel Fortuny, who concluded: “They would have overthrown us even if we had grown no bananas” (p. 7). For those who want to believe that the CIA overthrew Arbenz simply to protect a banana company, Bitter Fruit is required reading, and a great read at that. For those who want a full account of the complex array of factors involved in the Guatemalan affair, Cullather’s Secret History has now been added to the required reading list.


    Dosal, Paul J. (Paul Jaime), 1960-

    Bitter Fruit: The Story of the American Coup in Guatemala, and: Secret History: The CIA's Classified Account of its Operations in Guatemala, 1952-1954 (review)

    Hispanic American Historical Review - 80:3, August 2000, pp. 633-635


    http://hahr.dukejournals.org.proxy.u...print/80/3/633

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    Re: NATO to bolster forces in eastern Europe against threat from Russia

    Whether you're pro or anti-Russian, the link in my signature explains why NATO may soon become irrelevant. What people don't understand is that Putin is winning, he's gone incognito, funding into power radical parties across the EU. A united European front against Putin is impossible, and the Minsk conference on Wednesday will determine whether or not Germany and the US remain united against Russia. See the link for further details.

    Make no mistake, Putin is a threat to be stopped, but a severely underestimated one. His strategy may end up resulting in a dictator far worse and far more dangerous than any the world has before seen. This could get bad.
    "It's a big club, and you ain't in it! The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged. It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it..." - George Carlin

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