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Jordan pilot hostage Moaz al-Kasasbeh 'burned alive'

Risky, if we leave them alone now, will this make any substantial difference? So long as we refuse to convert, will this make any difference at all? Bin Laden spelled out in his open letter to the U.S. that it's convert or die.
 
The U.S. should not allow jihadist war criminals to shelter in cities like Raqqa and Mosul. I am sure there are quite a few jihadist targets the U.S. has identified in these and other cities, but that it has decided not to bomb for fear of causing civilian casualties. That is a dangerous mistake, because it concedes to the jihadists a more-or-less permanent safe haven. If civilians are killed in the course of attacking war criminals who are sheltering among them, it is not the attackers who are responsible for their deaths under the laws of war, but the war criminals.

I have thought all along that the precision of modern weapons, and the eagerness to trumpet it as proof of how civilized and humane this country is, has worked against us. It has made very clear to Islamic jihadists that we are less concerned with destroying them than we are with preventing casualties among civilians. Apparently the hope is this exquisite caution will cause the "good" Muslims to realize how nice we Americans are and take our side. But if many of those people are more or less sympathetic to the jihadists, they will take this as nothing but weakness--a sign we are not determined to destroy our sworn enemies. They should be disabused of this idea--dramatically, and soon.

Of course I am not calling for intentional targeting of civilians--that is a war crime. But we should never rule any jihadist target in or near a city off limits just because bombing it might incidentally kill civilians. It is very dangerous for the U.S. to fight these people so half-heartedly, letting them keep control of whole cities. They have even more resources than the jihadists who attacked on 9/11 had to hatch that plot, and we are letting them have a sanctuary as safe as what they enjoyed in Afghanistan fifteen years ago. President Pinprick acts as if there were no urgent need to destroy these jihadists, and his nonchalance and fecklessness are putting Americans at risk of another major terrorist attack on our soil.

I'm glad you've tempered your views with respect to harming innocent civilians while destroying ISIS and on that basis I can much more agree with your positions as outlined above.
 
My hope is that with the execution of this Jordanian pilot, the silent majority of Muslims will say "Enough." Those who harbor AQ and ISIS because of tribal/kinship connections must finally denounce this barbarism and work with the civilized world.

I hope you're right.
 
I'm glad you've tempered your views with respect to harming innocent civilians while destroying ISIS and on that basis I can much more agree with your positions as outlined above.

If ISIS wants to engage in a war of self-destruction, let them try to break us.
 
And unless we go to war with those countries, we cannot simply eradicate entire cities.

I haven't even implied that the U.S. should "eradicate entire cities," nor have I seen anyone else here imply it either. You are misstating my arguments, maybe in the hope that will add luster to your own.

The U.S. is already making war on Iraq and Syria, as well as Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and probably other nations, just as it did with Libya a few years ago, by bombing their territories.The bombing of those nations by the U.S. is a fact, regardless of whether Congress has formally declared war on them.
 
Gonna be interesting to see what Jordan's response to this is.

Jordan ain't scared to do what is promised. They will execute every last prisoner, probably after zapping them for information.
 
If ISIS wants to engage in a war of self-destruction, let them try to break us.

I think ISIS will be waging a war of self-destruction, but with significant American weaponry rounded up in Syria and Iraq and with petro-dollars being paid by unscrupulous dealers funding them they are far better equipped than the Syrians and Iraqis in small towns and villages they're overrunning. They need our help and they deserve our help.
 
I haven't even implied that the U.S. should "eradicate entire cities," nor have I seen anyone else here imply it either. You are misstating my arguments, maybe in the hope that will add luster to your own.

The U.S. is already making war on Iraq and Syria, as well as Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and probably other nations, just as it did with Libya a few years ago, by bombing their territories.The bombing of those nations by the U.S. is a fact, regardless of whether Congress has formally declared war on them.

All I am arguing is my stated position: only kill members of ISIS and make their positions unpalettable to potential recruits.
 
Jordan ain't scared to do what is promised. They will execute every last prisoner, probably after zapping them for information.

and every execution will create a martyr for their cause
now, explain how that will hurt isis
 
I think ISIS will be waging a war of self-destruction, but with significant American weaponry rounded up in Syria and Iraq and with petro-dollars being paid by unscrupulous dealers funding them they are far better equipped than the Syrians and Iraqis in small towns and villages they're overrunning. They need our help and they deserve our help.

I am not arguing againist that.

I am under no illusions that we have to fight ISIS.

However, I think we can make the calculated decision to absorb the potential losses from suicide bombings.
 
We, the west, get-the-****-out. Leave. No bases, no embassy, no nothing. We stop ****ing with their governments, stop assassinating and/or replacing their leaders, stop destroying their infrastructure (such that it is), stop any and all occupation of any sort. Let them fight their own battles.

The one thing we have not tried in over 70 years is leaving them the hell alone.
There might be some validity to that argument (although I don't buy into your blame America first crap). But there is one problem. If we took that approach now, in the wake of this current threat, that it wouldn't be viewed by ISIS, our allies and the entire world as us retreating in the face of danger. The US is going to have to confront ISIS sooner or later. It will be far easier to do it now than it will be to wait a decade and fight them here.
 
and every execution will create a martyr for their cause
now, explain how that will hurt isis

I honestly don't care. Jordan promised to execute prisoners if they killed their pilot. They will keep that promise. Probably better than *****footing around when they take your people hostage. They aren't children pitching fits. They are savages. It doesn't hurt them to kill them. Fine. But honestly just killing them to get your people back? Fine too. They are friggin barbarians. Treat them that way. Don't treat them like a freaking legitimate government or power to be negotiated with.
 
Risky, if we leave them alone now, will this make any substantial difference? So long as we refuse to convert, will this make any difference at all? Bin Laden spelled out in his open letter to the U.S. that it's convert or die.

Nota, one could argue that bin Laden and the entire region was under duress when he made that statement and in fact had been under duress and attack by the west for decades and still is. Most Muslims are not insisting that we all convert. It is only the extremists, just as it is the extremists in damn near all religions.

Would our complete departure from the region be successful? In a relatively short period of time, yes I think it would. There would be no westerners to convert or kill if we all left. Anyone who wanted to stay would be on his or her own.
 
you are saying we should be kept in the dark
and the media - the fourth estate - should do that

There is no need for the world to know every detail to satisfy their prurient interests. X was killed by ISIL. What more do you need to know to be in the light? Need photos of dead corpses? Do you goggle the vids of the beheadings?
 
There might be some validity to that argument (although I don't buy into your blame America first crap). But there is one problem. If we took that approach now, in the wake of this current threat, that it wouldn't be viewed by ISIS, our allies and the entire world as us retreating in the face of danger. The US is going to have to confront ISIS sooner or later. It will be far easier to do it now than it will be to wait a decade and fight them here.


I don't know that the rest of the world would view the west as weak and defeated. I don't know that we would have to confront ISIS sooner or later. Let them claim all the victory they want. The western nations bring their troops home. The western nations stop spending trillions of dollars in a ridiculous "war" that has no value. ISIS wins and has to stay in the region without the influx of money from the west. Let them be the winner.
 
I am not arguing againist that.

I am under no illusions that we have to fight ISIS.

However, I think we can make the calculated decision to absorb the potential losses from suicide bombings.

That's fair - I think you're right that people can absorb that which doesn't affect them directly. But I think we have a unique opportunity here to herd public opinion and governments to act that hasn't been the case since directly after 9/11. With the attacks in Canada, the attacks in France, the outpouring of support around the world after the Paris incidents, and now this, there's the potential to get it done. I hope we don't let it slide and then go back into complacency.
 
There is no need for the world to know every detail to satisfy their prurient interests. X was killed by ISIL. What more do you need to know to be in the light? Need photos of dead corpses? Do you goggle the vids of the beheadings?

Graphic images in general are not being presented in mainstream media due to their psychological impact, with children watching and all. So no that's not necessary. However to suggest that the media shouldn't even report on the executions is quite ridiculous.
 
I honestly don't care. Jordan promised to execute prisoners if they killed their pilot. They will keep that promise. Probably better than *****footing around when they take your people hostage. They aren't children pitching fits. They are savages. It doesn't hurt them to kill them. Fine. But honestly just killing them to get your people back? Fine too. They are friggin barbarians. Treat them that way. Don't treat them like a freaking legitimate government or power to be negotiated with.

I'm sure they'd much prefer to decapitate more than one person at a time via drone or missile and thus avoid the barbarism of using a sword, but they don't have the means.
 
I'm glad you've tempered your views with respect to harming innocent civilians while destroying ISIS and on that basis I can much more agree with your positions as outlined above.

Well, I'm glad you've changed your view somewhat, but I have not changed mine one bit. I made clear when I discussed this earlier that I recognized intentional targeting of civilians is a war crime, and was not advocating it. The current policy makes clear to both the jihadists and the inhabitants of cities in Iraq and Syria where they are sheltering that as long as the jihadists are careful to keep themselves and their assets close to the inhabitants, we will never attack them. If we are foolish enough to keep giving these evil people a free pass, it is only a matter of time before many innocent civilians here--maybe even more than on 9/11--are killed because of it. The need to destroy these jihadists thoroughly is pressing, but this President acts like we have all the time in the world to dawdle around with half-measures.

Imagine refusing, after D-Day, to attack any German forces in France that were near French towns or cities, because that might kill civilians. Of course that would have been ridiculous, and in the end about 40,000 French civilians were killed in the fighting that was needed to drive the Germans out. And the civilians in that case were overwhelmingly friendly to us. I am sure that is not the case in place like Raqaa and Mosul--a few thousand jihadists, without aircraft and with very few heavy weapons, cannot possibly control cities where fifty or a hundred times that many people live unless a great many of those people sympathize with them.
 
That's fair - I think you're right that people can absorb that which doesn't affect them directly. But I think we have a unique opportunity here to herd public opinion and governments to act that hasn't been the case since directly after 9/11. With the attacks in Canada, the attacks in France, the outpouring of support around the world after the Paris incidents, and now this, there's the potential to get it done. I hope we don't let it slide and then go back into complacency.

Here is the thing: this country has been at war for 14 years, fighting an enemy that cannot be pinned down or cornered. Many people are exhausted and want to go about with their daily lives.

It will take an terrorist attack akin to 9/11, possibly one that is worse, in order for America to commit to another war.
 
Or isn't it possible that they are hoping that their brutality will cause a massive and more brutal response that they will then use to incite the Muslim street worldwide?

Ahhhhh! They brutalize Muslims so non Muslims can engage, thereby turning Muslims to their side. Brilliant! Brilliant! It CANT fail. Choose not to act...they win. Choose to act, morons claim they win.

I guess those Muslims they are hoping that will jump to their side...they ARENT the 'real' Muslims...right?
 
Ahhhhh! They brutalize Muslims so non Muslims can engage, thereby turning Muslims to their side. Brilliant! Brilliant! It CANT fail. Choose not to act...they win. Choose to act, morons claim they win.

I guess those Muslims they are hoping that will jump to their side...they ARENT the 'real' Muslims...right?

The point is to not give ISIS any legitimacy. Calling the beliefs of ISIS the beliefs of Islam provides the group legitimacy which it uses to attract recruits and followers.
 
Graphic images in general are not being presented in mainstream media due to their psychological impact, with children watching and all. So no that's not necessary. However to suggest that the media shouldn't even report on the executions is quite ridiculous.

I never said they shouldn't report executions. I said they should stop reporting the means of execution.
 
I don't know that the rest of the world would view the west as weak and defeated. I don't know that we would have to confront ISIS sooner or later. Let them claim all the victory they want. The western nations bring their troops home. The western nations stop spending trillions of dollars in a ridiculous "war" that has no value. ISIS wins and has to stay in the region without the influx of money from the west. Let them be the winner.
So the world would somehow be a better place if ISIS dominated the ME??? And you think they would stay there and not bother us?? What are you smoking??
 
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