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Thread: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Alexander Mercouris

    on TALKS IN MOSCOW

    One of the most interesting things about the Moscow talks is that they mainly happened without the presence of aides and officials i.e. Putin, Hollande and Merkel were by themselves save for interpreters and stenographers. Putin and Merkel are known to be masters of detail and given his background as an enarque I presume Hollande also is. However the German and French officials will be very unhappy about this. The Russians less so because since the meeting is taking place in the Kremlin they are listening in to the discussions via hidden microphones.

    There has been an extraordinary degree of secrecy about this whole episode and it rather looks as if Merkel and Hollande were anxious to stop leaks and to prevent information about the talks from getting out. Presumably this is why their officials were barred from the meeting. From whom one wonders do Merkel and Hollande want to keep details of the meeting secret? From the media? From other members of their own governments? From the Americans?

    The fact that the British are excluded from the talks is going down very badly with many people here in London. It has not escaped people's notice that this is the first major negotiation to settle a big crisis in Europe in which Britain is not involved since the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. Of course it is largely the fault of the inept diplomacy of Cameron, who has taken such an extreme pro-Ukrainian position that Moscow simply doesn't see him as someone worth talking to. Also one suspects Merkel and Hollande do not trust Cameron not to leak the whole discussion to whomever they want to keep it from. Having said that it is difficult to see this as anything other than further evidence of Britain's decline into complete irrelevance. I cannot imagine Thatcher being excluded in this way.

    https://www.facebook.com/alexander.mercouris?fref=nf

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Lol. Former UK barrister Alexander Mercouris is a columnist for Russia's state-owned RT and Sputnik media outlets.

    He was disbarred in the UK on 12 March 2012 for deception and fraud.


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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Giving weapons to the Ukrainians will just make a bad situation worse- it could push Russia over the edge and into direct interventionism in which they will win anyway so this is a very very lousy idea.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Giving weapons to the Ukrainians will just make a bad situation worse- it could push Russia over the edge and into direct interventionism in which they will win anyway so this is a very very lousy idea.
    Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.


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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.
    And what? You think giving Kiev a few hundred handheld missile launchers is gonna change the equation? Russia can escalate this to the point of bringing in their elite armored divisions over the border and they would still win. The fact is, short of direct NATO intervention with massive ground forces, the West will be unable to change the outcome of this crisis through military means.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.
    No proofs, as usual?

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    And what? You think giving Kiev a few hundred handheld missile launchers is gonna change the equation? Russia can escalate this to the point of bringing in their elite armored divisions over the border and they would still win. The fact is, short of direct NATO intervention with massive ground forces, the West will be unable to change the outcome of this crisis through military means.
    This is a given. Due to geography, Putin is in possession of "escalation dominance". However, there is also the other side of the coin. Russia cannot financially afford an occupation of Ukraine. It can barely afford Crimea. There is also the domestic reality. Most Russians do not believe Russia will go to war with Ukraine (VTsIOM). Crimea is one thing, but a full-on invasion and occupation of mainland Ukraine is quite another thing.

    Rather than supplying arms to Ukraine, I personally favor a different approach which is being discussed and which brought Iran to the bargaining table. This would be removing Russia from the SWIFT system. Based in Belgium, this is the global system that allows banks to move funds around the world and credit cards to work. If this penalty were imposed, the entire Russian financial system would internally collapse within months.


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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    There is no doubt in my mind that Putin is doing his best to create a wedge between the EU/US alliance.

    The main problem for the alliance is that Putin has possession of what is known as "escalation dominance".
    And as long as the Europeans let him keep that hold and use the instrument with impunity, he will beat them and make the world a much more dangerous place.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    This is a given. Due to geography, Putin is in possession of "escalation dominance". However, there is also the other side of the coin. Russia cannot financially afford an occupation of Ukraine. It can barely afford Crimea. There is also the domestic reality. Most Russians do not believe Russia will go to war with Ukraine (VTsIOM). Crimea is one thing, but a full-on invasion and occupation of mainland Ukraine is quite another thing.

    Rather than supplying arms to Ukraine, I personally favor a different approach which is being discussed and which brought Iran to the bargaining table. This would be removing Russia from the SWIFT system. Based in Belgium, this is the global system that allows banks to move funds around the world and credit cards to work. If this penalty were imposed, the entire Russian financial system would internally collapse within months.
    Yes indeedy, and the perfect response would be for a few Russian Nuke subs to accidently snag
    and cut a few transAtlantic fiber optic cables to Scotland, Puerto Rico, etc. to effectively disable
    the SWIFT system and more to Atlantic border Nations. Then, follow that up with some accidental
    satellite collisions of the communications variety. Then, put Pvt. Schultz of the Russian Army on
    TV saying "I know nothing, and I'm sure of it."

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    And as long as the Europeans let him keep that hold and use the instrument with impunity, he will beat them and make the world a much more dangerous place.
    The world is already a much more dangerous place and about to get even more dangerous thanks to Czar Putin.

    Perhaps Merkel and Hollande now clearly see the proverbial writing on the wall.


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