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US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

Simpleχity;1064277082 said:
Although both sides continued to trade sporadic artillery/rocket fire from 5 September on-wards, it was rebel actions in mid-January that killed Minsk. Those actions included a public rejection of the Minsk Agreement by rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko who also announced a new multi-front offensive which initiated heavy fighting at the Donetsk Airport, heavy fighting around the rail junction of Debaltseve, and a rebel rocket attack on the city of Mariupol which killed 30 civilians and wounded over a hundred. Since the new rebel offensive began, rebels have acquired ~200 square miles of additional territory.

Pro-Russian rebels reject peace deal, launch new offensive


Regarding the US sending defensive lethal weapons to Ukraine, I now tend to think the New York Times article of Feb. 1 breaking this story was a trial balloon by the Obama administration to gauge domestic and foreign reaction. Asked about arming Ukraine yesterday in his confirmation hearing before Congress, SecDef nominee Ashton Carter stated; "I very much incline in that direction ... because I think we need to support the Ukrainians in defending themselves." Clearly, such a statement would have been pre-vetted by the White House.

Which leads me to believe the decision has already been made. Looking at it pragmatically though, when it comes to Ukraine, Obama moves at a glacial pace. US Secretary of State John Kerry is scheduled to arrive in Kyiv today (2/5/15) for consultations.
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Nice, lets have another proxy war with Russia. Need to feed the very hungry MIC.
 
11Bravo said:
Arming Ukraine is really stupid. We could give them all the money in the world. They would never fend off Russia if Russia really wanted Ukraine...This is a waste of time
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Better to just let Russia roll then stand up to them, we'll stop them when? Berlin?
 
Russia didn't start this, and all the hype about Russian aggression, and desire to annex the Ukraine and then move onto the next Eastern European country is rubbish. Russia is not willing to have the Ukraine become a NATO member on their border, and seem thus far determined to prevent it. Russia is responding to Western aggressions and intrigue.
 
Montecresto said:
Russia didn't start this, and all the hype about Russian aggression, and desire to annex the Ukraine and then move onto the next Eastern European country is rubbish.
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Lol. You need to keep up. Putin himself admitted the "little green men" who invaded Crimea were Russian forces.
 
Simpleχity;1064277082 said:
Regarding the US sending defensive lethal weapons to Ukraine, I now tend to think the New York Times article of Feb. 1 breaking this story was a trial balloon by the Obama administration to gauge domestic and foreign reaction. Asked about arming Ukraine yesterday in his confirmation hearing before Congress, SecDef nominee Ashton Carter stated; "I very much incline in that direction ... because I think we need to support the Ukrainians in defending themselves." Clearly, such a statement would have been pre-vetted by the White House.

Which leads me to believe the decision has already been made. Looking at it pragmatically though, when it comes to Ukraine, Obama moves at a glacial pace. US Secretary of State John Kerry is scheduled to arrive in Kyiv today (2/5/15) for consultations.
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Merkel and Hollande to fly to Moscow in new effort to resolve Ukraine crisis

This came out of the blue. Merkel and Hollande will be in Kyiv today (as will Kerry) and then fly to Moscow and meet Putin tomorrow.

Do Merkel and Hollande already know Obama's decision? If so, then this may possibly be a last ditch attempt to convince Putin that the time to stop his war in Ukraine is right now.

For everyone's sake, I hope they succeed.
 
MrVicchio said:
Better to just let Russia roll then stand up to them, we'll stop them when? Berlin?
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Well if the entire world is going to make US be the only people to stop Russia, then Europe doesn't deserve our help...again.
 
Merkel, Hollande, and Kerry met with Poroshenko in Kyiv yesterday. Merkel and Hollande will be in Moscow today (2/6/15) for direct talks with Putin.

Ukraine Insists Any Pact With Russia Must Adhere to Terms of September Accord

European insiders say that rather than putting forth any new initiative, Merkel and Hollande will try to convince Putin to honor the terms of the Minsk Agreement. They will also press Putin to release captured Ukrainian pilot Lieutenant Nadia Savchenko. Merkel, Hollande, and Kerry all agree with Poroshenko that fighting must cease immediately and the terms of the Minsk Agreement (which Russia signed) must be fulfilled.

Obama is currently considering supplying Ukraine with lethal defensive armaments. Calls are also starting to surface to remove Russia from the Belgium-based Swift International Transaction System. Removal from Swift would effectively void all Russian credit card transactions worldwide.

The Guardian view on the Ukraine conflict: Swift action needed : Editorial
 
Simpleχity;1064277532 said:
Lol. You need to keep up. Putin himself admitted the "little green men" who invaded Crimea were Russian forces.
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Your language is disingenuous! Putin of course admits moving into Crimea to secure his assets and a majority pro Russian population. I don't care what you call it, understand? It is what it is and Crimea is where it belongs.
 
Simpleχity;1064281455 said:
Merkel, Hollande, and Kerry met with Poroshenko in Kyiv yesterday. Merkel and Hollande will be in Moscow today (2/6/15) for direct talks with Putin.

Ukraine Insists Any Pact With Russia Must Adhere to Terms of September Accord

European insiders say that rather than putting forth any new initiative, Merkel and Hollande will try to convince Putin to honor the terms of the Minsk Agreement. They will also press Putin to release captured Ukrainian pilot Lieutenant Nadia Savchenko. Merkel, Hollande, and Kerry all agree with Poroshenko that fighting must cease immediately and the terms of the Minsk Agreement (which Russia signed) must be fulfilled.

Obama is currently considering supplying Ukraine with lethal defensive armaments. Calls are also starting to surface to remove Russia from the Belgium-based Swift International Transaction System. Removal from Swift would effectively void all Russian credit card transactions worldwide.

The Guardian view on the Ukraine conflict: Swift action needed : Editorial
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Merkel and Hollande are trying to save Poroshenko's ass because most of his army is trapped
in Debalsavo. The Ukrainians are about to suffer a debilitating loss and are on the verge of
economic default. The Ukrainian citizens don't deserve this disaster brought to them by their
Oligarchs, the IMF, USA, CIA, NED, etc. Higher taxes, higher prices, lower pensions, vulture
CORPORATISTS about to devour Ukrainian patrimony, brought to you by Poroshenko, Yats,
Nuland, Pyatt, IMF, Hunter Biden, et al. There are no good guys in Kiev. Skunks, pond scum,
"toilet bowl flotsam," and thieves.
 
Montecresto said:
Your language is disingenuous! Putin of course admits moving into Crimea to secure his assets and a majority pro Russian population. I don't care what you call it, understand? It is what it is and Crimea is where it belongs.
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Crimea has been Ukraine territory since 1954. That is why Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the Black Sea Fleet naval base at Sevastopol. You don't pay rent on something that is already yours.
 
DaveFagan said:
Merkel and Hollande are trying to save Poroshenko's ass because most of his army is trapped
in Debalsavo. The Ukrainians are about to suffer a debilitating loss and are on the verge of
economic default. The Ukrainian citizens don't deserve this disaster brought to them by their
Oligarchs, the IMF, USA, CIA, NED, etc. Higher taxes, higher prices, lower pensions, vulture
CORPORATISTS about to devour Ukrainian patrimony, brought to you by Poroshenko, Yats,
Nuland, Pyatt, IMF, Hunter Biden, et al. There are no good guys in Kiev. Skunks, pond scum,
"toilet bowl flotsam," and thieves.
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First of all, it was not your favorite suspects this time that caused the desaster. That was clearly the incredibly irresponsible handling of the trade treaty by the EU. After all, Putin had said he would not tolerate, what he considered eastward expansion and aggression and the EU had seen, what Putin does in such cases in Georgia, Syria or Transnistria.

The other thing is the French/German move without any visible inclusion of Europe's most exposed and savvy of Russia alalong the EUs eastern boarder with the bear. The last time this axis was active it led to war in Iraq.
 
Simpleχity;1064277558 said:
Merkel and Hollande to fly to Moscow in new effort to resolve Ukraine crisis

This came out of the blue. Merkel and Hollande will be in Kyiv today (as will Kerry) and then fly to Moscow and meet Putin tomorrow.

Do Merkel and Hollande already know Obama's decision? If so, then this may possibly be a last ditch attempt to convince Putin that the time to stop his war in Ukraine is right now.

For everyone's sake, I hope they succeed.
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The EU and especially the Germans have been exceptionally inept and have caused a desaster for millions of Ukrainian people and brought about war in Europe. That is bad enough. Let's hope they don't crash the transatlantic alliance like Putin tried to do using Schröder and Chirac.
 
Moscow Talks Fail to Clinch Ukraine Peace Deal

After five hours of private talks with Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande departed Moscow without the normal press conference. All three capitals later characterized the talks as "open and constructive". A conference-call including Poroshenko, Putin, Merkel, and Hollande is scheduled for Sunday. U.S. national-security adviser Susan Rice said she has been in close contact with her German and French counterparts about the new diplomatic push.
 
joG said:
The EU and especially the Germans have been exceptionally inept and have caused a desaster for millions of Ukrainian people and brought about war in Europe. That is bad enough. Let's hope they don't crash the transatlantic alliance like Putin tried to do using Schröder and Chirac.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Putin is doing his best to create a wedge between the EU/US alliance.

The main problem for the alliance is that Putin has possession of what is known as "escalation dominance".
 
Alexander Mercouris

on TALKS IN MOSCOW

One of the most interesting things about the Moscow talks is that they mainly happened without the presence of aides and officials i.e. Putin, Hollande and Merkel were by themselves save for interpreters and stenographers. Putin and Merkel are known to be masters of detail and given his background as an enarque I presume Hollande also is. However the German and French officials will be very unhappy about this. The Russians less so because since the meeting is taking place in the Kremlin they are listening in to the discussions via hidden microphones.

There has been an extraordinary degree of secrecy about this whole episode and it rather looks as if Merkel and Hollande were anxious to stop leaks and to prevent information about the talks from getting out. Presumably this is why their officials were barred from the meeting. From whom one wonders do Merkel and Hollande want to keep details of the meeting secret? From the media? From other members of their own governments? From the Americans?

The fact that the British are excluded from the talks is going down very badly with many people here in London. It has not escaped people's notice that this is the first major negotiation to settle a big crisis in Europe in which Britain is not involved since the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. Of course it is largely the fault of the inept diplomacy of Cameron, who has taken such an extreme pro-Ukrainian position that Moscow simply doesn't see him as someone worth talking to. Also one suspects Merkel and Hollande do not trust Cameron not to leak the whole discussion to whomever they want to keep it from. Having said that it is difficult to see this as anything other than further evidence of Britain's decline into complete irrelevance. I cannot imagine Thatcher being excluded in this way.

https://www.facebook.com/alexander.mercouris?fref=nf
 
Lol. Former UK barrister Alexander Mercouris is a columnist for Russia's state-owned RT and Sputnik media outlets.

He was disbarred in the UK on 12 March 2012 for deception and fraud.
 
Giving weapons to the Ukrainians will just make a bad situation worse- it could push Russia over the edge and into direct interventionism in which they will win anyway so this is a very very lousy idea.
 
PoS said:
Giving weapons to the Ukrainians will just make a bad situation worse- it could push Russia over the edge and into direct interventionism in which they will win anyway so this is a very very lousy idea.
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Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.
 
Simpleχity;1064285344 said:
Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.
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And what? You think giving Kiev a few hundred handheld missile launchers is gonna change the equation? Russia can escalate this to the point of bringing in their elite armored divisions over the border and they would still win. The fact is, short of direct NATO intervention with massive ground forces, the West will be unable to change the outcome of this crisis through military means.
 
Simpleχity;1064285344 said:
Russia is already involved in direct interventionism. Russian soldiers have been captured on Ukraine territory. A highly conservative estimate places the level of Russian forces currently in eastern Ukraine at 1,000. This is the minimum necessary to operate the highly sophisticated Russian arms systems that have been injected into the rebel regions.
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No proofs, as usual?
 
PoS said:
And what? You think giving Kiev a few hundred handheld missile launchers is gonna change the equation? Russia can escalate this to the point of bringing in their elite armored divisions over the border and they would still win. The fact is, short of direct NATO intervention with massive ground forces, the West will be unable to change the outcome of this crisis through military means.
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This is a given. Due to geography, Putin is in possession of "escalation dominance". However, there is also the other side of the coin. Russia cannot financially afford an occupation of Ukraine. It can barely afford Crimea. There is also the domestic reality. Most Russians do not believe Russia will go to war with Ukraine (VTsIOM). Crimea is one thing, but a full-on invasion and occupation of mainland Ukraine is quite another thing.

Rather than supplying arms to Ukraine, I personally favor a different approach which is being discussed and which brought Iran to the bargaining table. This would be removing Russia from the SWIFT system. Based in Belgium, this is the global system that allows banks to move funds around the world and credit cards to work. If this penalty were imposed, the entire Russian financial system would internally collapse within months.
 
Simpleχity;1064285302 said:
There is no doubt in my mind that Putin is doing his best to create a wedge between the EU/US alliance.

The main problem for the alliance is that Putin has possession of what is known as "escalation dominance".
Click to expand...

And as long as the Europeans let him keep that hold and use the instrument with impunity, he will beat them and make the world a much more dangerous place.
 
Simpleχity;1064285387 said:
This is a given. Due to geography, Putin is in possession of "escalation dominance". However, there is also the other side of the coin. Russia cannot financially afford an occupation of Ukraine. It can barely afford Crimea. There is also the domestic reality. Most Russians do not believe Russia will go to war with Ukraine (VTsIOM). Crimea is one thing, but a full-on invasion and occupation of mainland Ukraine is quite another thing.

Rather than supplying arms to Ukraine, I personally favor a different approach which is being discussed and which brought Iran to the bargaining table. This would be removing Russia from the SWIFT system. Based in Belgium, this is the global system that allows banks to move funds around the world and credit cards to work. If this penalty were imposed, the entire Russian financial system would internally collapse within months.
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Yes indeedy, and the perfect response would be for a few Russian Nuke subs to accidently snag
and cut a few transAtlantic fiber optic cables to Scotland, Puerto Rico, etc. to effectively disable
the SWIFT system and more to Atlantic border Nations. Then, follow that up with some accidental
satellite collisions of the communications variety. Then, put Pvt. Schultz of the Russian Army on
TV saying "I know nothing, and I'm sure of it."
 
joG said:
And as long as the Europeans let him keep that hold and use the instrument with impunity, he will beat them and make the world a much more dangerous place.
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The world is already a much more dangerous place and about to get even more dangerous thanks to Czar Putin.

Perhaps Merkel and Hollande now clearly see the proverbial writing on the wall.
 
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