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Thread: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

  1. #11
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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Sorry. I started a duplicate thread not realizing that this one was already started.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...e-ukraine.html

    I seriously hope that we do not go down this road. Why on Earth anyone would think Ukraine is worth the inevitable proxy war with Russia that doing this would certainly lead to and a return to the cold war is beyond me.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    That question is far beyond my purview. Putin hasn't responded positively to diplomacy and sanctions. Non-lethal options are dwindling.

    Flournoy is a brilliant former Obama DoD appointee and he listens to her. If Rice comes on-board, the circle is complete.
    But that is the biggest and the most important question.
    These days I don't have time to thoroughly read the entire report despite it being quite short, but I haven't seen anything there that even resembles a decent analysis of the situation in the past and what's more alarming no deep analysis of the consequences of such supplies.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Good point. Russia can send far more, far faster than the US can.

    US military aid cannot win the war. In the end, the Ukrainians, as a people, must demonstrate they have the will to fight and the skills to win. They can defeat the rebels with their current weapons if used skillfully. The US should send more "force multipliers" (the latest radios, artillery radars, jamming devices, drones for "border patrol", robots, and data sharing devices for Ukrainian tanks etc) as well as logistics and armored warfare experts acting as "contractors". As a side note, the US has already provided weapons idnoirect weapons as 50 or so fully functioning T-72s were mysteriously brokered from Czech Republic to Ukraine.
    I"ll change the blue a bit:
    Neither Russia nor US can win the war with military means.
    In the end, Ukrainians as a people - including Donbas residents, should decide how to shape their own future.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    I"ll change the blue a bit:
    Neither Russia nor US can win the war with military means.
    In the end, Ukrainians as a people - including Donbas residents, should decide how to shape their own future.

    Fallen.
    The Ukrainians, as a people, have decided on a unified Ukraine. Donbass residents were then offered semi autonomous status in a unified Ukraine as well as fair and open election of their represenatives. Putin, however, dictated via the various rebel factions that that was unacceptable because it did not guarantee his desired result.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    The Ukrainians, as a people, have decided on a unified Ukraine. Donbass residents were then offered semi autonomous status in a unified Ukraine as well as fair and open election of their represenatives. Putin, however, dictated via the various rebel factions that that was unacceptable because it did not guarantee his desired result.
    Sigh.

    I think we already had a discussion about the chronology of the conflict, possibly even several times ...

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Sigh.

    I think we already had a discussion about the chronology of the conflict, possibly even several times ...

    Fallen.
    At the end of the day, Poroshenko offered alot:

    - The governors of the two provinces would be selected by direct election- guaranteeing that the governors would be local Russo Ukrainians.
    - a three year period of increased autonomy
    - amnesty to all rebel fighters who had not committed out right criminal acts (the vast majority of rebels would be allowed to return to their former lives)
    - the Russian language's co-equal status Ukrainian for official purposes was re-instated

    In short, Poroshenko gave the rebels pretty much what Putin gave the Chechens. Yet, even this was not enough. Ironically, it may well have been enough for the dwindling number of truly local rebels and their local commanders, but it was not enough for Putin.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    At the end of the day, Poroshenko offered alot:

    - The governors of the two provinces would be selected by direct election- guaranteeing that the governors would be local Russo Ukrainians.
    - a three year period of increased autonomy
    - amnesty to all rebel fighters who had not committed out right criminal acts (the vast majority of rebels would be allowed to return to their former lives)
    - the Russian language's co-equal status Ukrainian for official purposes was re-instated

    In short, Poroshenko gave the rebels pretty much what Putin gave the Chechens. Yet, even this was not enough. Ironically, it may well have been enough for the dwindling number of truly local rebels and their local commanders, but it was not enough for Putin.
    Would be nice if you would state the dates for those offers.

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Would be nice if you would state the dates for those offers.
    Ukrainian parliament grants special status to the Donbass

    Poroshenko signs law on special status for Donbass

    The Special Status Law was annulled in late November after the rebels held a referendum on 2 November in violation of the Minsk Agreement, specifically...

    9. Ensure early local elections in accordance with the law of Ukraine "about local government provisional arrangements in some areas of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts" (law on the special status).
    Ukraine had scheduled the Special Status Law elections for the Luhansk and Donetsk regions to take place on 7 December.


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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    Neither Russia nor US can win the war with military means.
    Even if the US provided lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine, Russia still has numerous military advantages (i.e porous border, proximity logistics, etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    In the end, Ukrainians as a people - including Donbas residents, should decide how to shape their own future.
    Which cannot happen unless and until the Minsk Agreement is honored...

    10. Withdraw the illegal armed groups, military equipment, as well as fighters and mercenaries from Ukraine.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: US considers supplying arms to Ukraine forces, officials say

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Ukrainian parliament grants special status to the Donbass
    Poroshenko signs law on special status for Donbass
    The Special Status Law was annulled in late November after the rebels held a referendum on 2 November in violation of the Minsk Agreement, specifically...
    Ukraine had scheduled the Special Status Law elections for the Luhansk and Donetsk regions to take place on 7 December.
    I know the dates, but I want Cryptic to familiarize himself with them and to see what happened few weeks before these "generous concessions".

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Even if the US provided lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine, Russia still has numerous military advantages (i.e porous border, proximity logistics, etc)
    Which cannot happen unless and until the Minsk Agreement is honored...
    Unfortunately, the Minsk agreements are dead for now, and both sides are to blame for that.

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