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Thread: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    So what? Is someone killed it with a firearm morally superior to someone killed by another means?

    You'd rather have 50 murders committed without a gun, then 10 committed with one?
    I tried that already. Regarding cars and guns. I said dead is dead, right? It doesnt matter to the dead people or their families.

    Apparently he things that 'intentional' deaths matter more, that the dead would care. And their families? Why? They're gone. It only matters if you continue to manufacture false perceptions around the reasons, like is common here: cars good, guns bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #282
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I tried that already. Regarding cars and guns. I said dead is dead, right? It doesnt matter to the dead people or their families.

    Apparently he things that 'intentional' deaths matter more, that the dead would care. And their families? Why? They're gone. It only matters if you continue to manufacture false perceptions around the reasons, like is common here: cars good, guns bad.
    Maybe it would be no concern to you if your family were killed by accident or murdered (you obviously have guns that need protected more than they do after all) but I'll wager that is most certainly not the case for the vast bulk of individuals.

    All modern societies have accidental deaths. You have yet to explain why all these additional and mostly intentional firearms deaths (almost absent from other developed nations) are acceptable ?

  3. #283
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Maybe it would be no concern to you if your family were killed by accident or murdered (you obviously have guns that need protected more than they do after all) but I'll wager that is most certainly not the case for the vast bulk of individuals.

    All modern societies have accidental deaths. You have yet to explain why all these additional and mostly intentional firearms deaths (almost absent from other developed nations) are acceptable
    Then it seems even stupider for people you seem to know that would accept the much higher body counts as 'oh well,' it was just an accident. She was so sweet....but accidents happen.

    And we have additional deaths thru accidents all the time. I asked if we should further restrict driving...we can you know. So can the UK. People just dont want that...they WANT to drive anytime, anywhere and thus accept that risk of death very willingly.

    I asked if we should make swimming and boating illegal to prevent drowning? Why not? Why would a modern nation allow it if it leads to so many accidental deaths?

    Because we *like* those things and are willing to accept the risks. But boo hoo hoo, some people are irrationally afraid of guns and seem to think that being dead from a gunshot is so much worse than drowning. Wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #284
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Then it seems even stupider for people you seem to know that would accept the much higher body counts as 'oh well,' it was just an accident. She was so sweet....but accidents happen.
    Thats right they do, just like they do in other countries

    And we have additional deaths thru accidents all the time. I asked if we should further restrict driving...we can you know. So can the UK. People just dont want that...they WANT to drive anytime, anywhere and thus accept that risk of death very willingly.

    I asked if we should make swimming and boating illegal to prevent drowning? Why not? Why would a modern nation allow it if it leads to so many accidental deaths?

    Because we *like* those things and are willing to accept the risks. But boo hoo hoo, some people are irrationally afraid of guns and seem to think that being dead from a gunshot is so much worse than drowning. Wow.
    We have all these kinds of accidents too. You clearly are unwilling to acknowledge that intentional deaths by use of firearms are an additional and substantial extra threat almost unique to US society. Just looking at child deaths for example

    The United States accounts for nearly 75 percent of all children murdered in the developed world. Children between the ages of 5 and 14 in the United States are 17 times more likely to be murdered by firearms than children in other industrialized nations.

    In terms of accidental fatalities, American children younger than 15 are nine times more likely to die by a gun accident than those in the rest of the developed world.


    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf
    Last edited by flogger; 02-04-15 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post

    We have all these kinds of accidents too. You clearly are unwilling to acknowledge that intentional deaths by use of firearms are an additional and substantial extra threat almost unique to US society. Just looking at child deaths for example
    And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #286
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
    Repeating the same defensive mantra over and over again doesn't make you right as the facts clearly illustrate

    Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.

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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Repeating the same defensive mantra over and over again doesn't make you right as the facts clearly illustrate

    Gun deaths in children: Statistics show firearms endanger kids despite NRA safety programs.
    Make up your mind...are you discussing intentional or accidental? Do not mix them together. I have provided my cases for both *separately.* I just did regarding vehicular and drowning deaths. One much more common, one more on par with accidental gun deaths. I asked if we should make much tighter regulations for cars and driving. I asked if we should ban swimming, boating, and pools.

    So, make up your mind, but stop mixing intentional and accidental together just to try and make your (continually failed) point.



    This (below) is separate and you failed miserably when you posted yourself that your own posted UK stats were 'overall.' LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa
    And you are clearly unwilling to acknowlege that the vast majority of intentional deaths by firearms in the US are criminals and gang members. And some suicides. The criminals and gang members are not missed by "America." (one could almost consider it a public service if the guns help them exterminate each other). And the suicides are a mental illness problem, sad but the rest of us should not be punished for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #288
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Make up your mind...are you discussing intentional or accidental? Do not mix them together. I have provided my cases for both *separately.* I just did regarding vehicular and drowning deaths. One much more common, one more on par with accidental gun deaths. I asked if we should make much tighter regulations for cars and driving. I asked if we should ban swimming, boating, and pools.

    So, make up your mind, but stop mixing intentional and accidental together just to try and make your (continually failed) point.

    This (below) is separate and you failed miserably when you posted yourself that your own posted UK stats were 'overall.' LOL
    Keep repeating your scriptures all you like if it makes you feel better but guns clearly blight your society and you've been shown ample study evidence for that . Going into denial about it won't make it go away. If you choose not to accept it then I certainly cannot make you.
    Last edited by flogger; 02-04-15 at 06:49 PM.

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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The worst crime on the books is surely murder.
    Debatable, IMO. I consider sex crimes against children equally bad, possibly worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Your murder rates are by far the highest in the developed world
    I'm not sure that is accurate.
    I encountered this interesting article on the subject, and it raises some interesting points...Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center
    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    because of mass casual access to firearms which are used in three quarters of them.
    75% of murders being by firearm is a slight exaggeration - it is actually 70%, I believe.
    Not sure what exactly you mean by "casual access to firearms".

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Since we introduced comprehensive gun controls over recent decades our already low gun crime has significantly diminished and our criminal fraternity now find it far more difficult and expensive to acquire them.
    That article I linked above actually mentions your country, in part.

    Apparently in England and Wales:
    Finally, as an aside, one has to be very careful in making comparisons across countries because numbers are not always comparable. For example, homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers typically “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defense or otherwise” (Report to Parliament).
    This apparently reduces the number of official "homicides" about 15%, and has a larger impact on gun-related homicide numbers.

    It's an interesting article that I am still reading.

    Edit: Actually that article makes another point several times - in their opinion, this data does not provide a good picture of things - many other factors are involved in murder rate and such, not simply # of murders compared to # of gun murders, or # of guns available.

    They mention that Switzerland has quite high access to firearms, as every adult male between 18 and 42 has to have a government-issued firearm in their home.
    Israel has similar situation - it has much higher gun access rates than it's listed gun ownership rates, because most of the firearms are government-owned, even if they're present in the home of whomever they are issued to.

    So gun ownership or guns per 100 persons are not accurate determinations of "how many people have access to guns".

    For example there are probably people in the US with 10s or hundreds of guns they personally own - but they're locked in safes or the like (especially if collectables/antiques, I presume) and far less accessible than, say, a handgun in a bedside table drawer, or whatever.
    Last edited by The Mark; 02-04-15 at 07:33 PM.
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    Re: Toddler wounds both parents with 1 shot from handgun

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Debatable, IMO. I consider sex crimes against children equally bad, possibly worse.
    I'm not sure that is accurate.
    I encountered this interesting article on the subject, and it raises some interesting points...Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research Center
    75% of murders being by firearm is a slight exaggeration - it is actually 70%, I believe.
    Not sure what exactly you mean by "casual access to firearms".

    That article I linked above actually mentions your country, in part.

    Apparently in England and Wales:

    This apparently reduces the number of official "homicides" about 15%, and has a larger impact on gun-related homicide numbers.

    It's an interesting article that I am still reading.

    Edit: Actually that article makes another point several times - in their opinion, this data does not provide a good picture of things - many other factors are involved in murder rate and such, not simply # of murders compared to # of gun murders, or # of guns available.

    They mention that Switzerland has quite high access to firearms, as every adult male between 18 and 42 has to have a government-issued firearm in their home.
    Israel has similar situation - it has much higher gun access rates than it's listed gun ownership rates, because most of the firearms are government-owned, even if they're present in the home of whomever they are issued to.

    So gun ownership or guns per 100 persons are not accurate determinations of "how many people have access to guns".

    For example there are probably people in the US with 10s or hundreds of guns they personally own - but they're locked in safes or the like (especially if collectables/antiques, I presume) and far less accessible than, say, a handgun in a bedside table drawer, or whatever.
    I own five guns, and I'm not even that committed to collecting them
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No one cares about your stupid hippy logic
    "Be careful of averages, the average person has one breast and one testicle"
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