• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

mac said:
No, it didn't. Which is why I explained why I didn't sign up at my last security investigation.
Click to expand...

Ummm..yes, they did. The government does not just let young men get around not signing up. They don't like to imprison young men for it because they know the draft is unpopular, but please do not kid yourself into thinking you got away with anything.
 
Ikari said:
How come you can't produce the numbers to back your claim then? I mean, you're the expert here, you're comments are entirely relevant. There's data out there, there's statistics, there's knowledge; do you have any of it? Let's see it.
Click to expand...

Which claim?
 
Lursa said:
English is not your strong suit either?

Again: demonstrating you do not understand herd immunity. :doh
Click to expand...

So once again, a deflection and an insult. I don't understand herd immunity but YOU cannot produce any evidence for your claim. Do you know what evidence is? It's the measurements and statistics that back a claim. Where are yours?
 
Deuce said:
It wiped out like a third to a half of the population of Europe. Is.... is that not a sufficiently bad outcome for you!?

"They didn't have vaccines and look, only an ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIED!" This is an argument against vaccines!? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!
Click to expand...

:lol:

I thought you were!

Hey, I understand that. We want to protect people if we can but I care about my kids first. Not yours, if you have them... mine. At the same time I truly believe in survival of the fittest. I come from a long lineage of that. Vikings. Family line survived the Plague. First to arrive on the Mayflower. Revolutionary War veterans. Some of the first to cross the Oregon Trail. Etc. Etc.
 
Henrin said:
Ummm..yes, they did. The government does not just let young men get around not signing up. They don't like to imprison young men for it because they know the draft is unpopular, but please do not kid yourself into thinking you got away with anything.
Click to expand...

Uhm, no, they didn't. I am not on the selective service list. That's a fact. :shrug:

It's such a fact that I have a conversation with an investigator about it every 5 years.
 
Deuce said:
It wiped out like a third to a half of the population of Europe. Is.... is that not a sufficiently bad outcome for you!?

"They didn't have vaccines and look, only an ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIED!" This is an argument against vaccines!? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!
Click to expand...

When did that occur?
 
Lursa said:
Which claim?
Click to expand...

Herd immunity inoculation levels. We have places stretching from 80% vaccination rates to greater than 98%. You keep talking about how everyone has to be inoculated to maintain herd immunity. Well we have plenty of places with various demographics, so it seems that those numbers should be out there, yes? What are they? What the measles rate in CO compared to states with higher vaccination rates? How many of those kids die or suffer disabilities?

Where are your numbers?
 
mac said:
Uhm, no, they didn't. I am not on the selective service list. That's a fact. :shrug:

It's such a fact that I have a conversation an investigator about it every 5 years.
Click to expand...

So what, the government is bugging you about it?
 
Henrin said:
So what, the government is bugging you about it?
Click to expand...

No, I disclose that I didn't sign up at my security re-investigations. Happens every 5 years.


we're digressing....
 
Deuce said:
When did what occur? The plague? The worst was the 14th century.
Click to expand...

Yes. When did it occur?

edit: didn't read your whole reply.

So, was there a treatment for it in the 14th century? Is there a treatment for it now?

Is there a vaccine for it?
 
Last edited:
mac said:
No, I disclose that I didn't sign up at my security re-investigations. Happens every 5 years.


we're digressing....
Click to expand...

Oh, I was just interested. Seems kind of a weird thing to bring up is all.
 
Lursa said:
I knew you'd say that. also your opinion.

I cannot imagine anything more terrible, more painful, than the loss of a child, the suffering of a child. I think it's probably the worst thing in life that people go thru.

You have no idea how I feel about my family. My 19 yr old niece was diagnosed with cancer 1.5 yrs ago, you certainly cant tell me how I felt about it.

So we will continue to disagree.
Click to expand...

Well, I knew that you would know that I would say that...

I certainly am not going to tell you how you feel and your feelings are assuredly very strong but I can say with 100% confidence (except for some crazy people) that no parent in the world feels as strongly for any other family member as they do for their own child and it does not take a parent to understand that either. I am sure you care more about your niece than you do some 2nd or 3rd cousin... right? You care more about your niece than your horse... right? It is just like people that don't get married and say that it doesn't matter to actually sign the papers, etc. because their relationship is exactly like a marriage. I have never known one person that, after they did get married, and even some after twenty years or more, that they still felt that way... that their non-marriage relationship was like, or as strong and binding, as their married one. It is a matter of degrees...
 
Henrin said:
Oh, I was just interested. Seems kind of a weird thing to bring up is all.
Click to expand...

It was an answer to a claim that the govt could send you off to war at will.
 
Ikari said:
Herd immunity inoculation levels. We have places stretching from 80% vaccination rates to greater than 98%. You keep talking about how everyone has to be inoculated to maintain herd immunity. Well we have plenty of places with various demographics, so it seems that those numbers should be out there, yes? What are they? What the measles rate in CO compared to states with higher vaccination rates? How many of those kids die or suffer disabilities?

Where are your numbers?
Click to expand...

Why are these numbers important? The data is quite clear, more vaccinations = fewer infections, complications, and deaths.
I think you're exaggerating things. Nobody is saying 100% of the population must be vaccinated. In fact, we often point out that many people can't be vaccinated.

Higher is better. Period.
 
mac said:
Yes. When did it occur?
Click to expand...

I don't know, maybe in the timeframe I put in the post you quoted?

It was prevalent for a long time, but in that period it wiped out a large portion of Europe.
 
Lursa said:
I'ts not true...it's your speculation. And we did have the draft and it was perfectly legal. It has not been declared 'illegal' or unConstitutional.
Click to expand...

Neither was the 1896 Plessy v Ferguson SCOTUS Decision which WAS illegal and unconstitutional and was overturned 60 years later with the Brown V Board Decision of 1954.

The draft violates the 5th Amendment depriving citizens of "life, liberty, or property without due process of law."
 
mac said:
It was an answer to a claim that the govt could send you off to war at will.
Click to expand...

I know what happened in the thread. It just seems weird to bring that up every five years. Anyway, I have decided this is far too personal, so I will just allow myself to stay curious.
 
Deuce said:
I don't know, maybe in the timeframe I put in the post you quoted?

It was prevalent for a long time, but in that period it wiped out a large portion of Europe.
Click to expand...

Yes, in the 14th century it did. In the modern age it would not. Why? Because we now know how to treat it. IS there a vaccine for bubonic plague?
 
Henrin said:
I know what happened in the thread. It just seems weird to bring that up every five years. Anyway, I have decided this is far too personal, so I will just allow myself to stay curious.
Click to expand...

In that type of investigation you disclose anything out of the ordinary. :shrug:
 
Deuce said:
Why are these numbers important? The data is quite clear, more vaccinations = fewer infections, complications, and deaths.
I think you're exaggerating things. Nobody is saying 100% of the population must be vaccinated. In fact, we often point out that many people can't be vaccinated.

Higher is better. Period.
Click to expand...

The numbers are important because of exactly what you just said "Nobody is saying 100% of the population must be vaccinated". So to maintain herd immunity, we need something between 0 and 100, what is it? Because people want to sit around and freak out about some folk who don't inoculate their kids, but has that aggregated to a level where it makes a true difference? There are places like Colorado that have vaccination levels for the Measles around 80%, has that reduction caused a statistically significant increase in cases? In deaths? In long term disabilities?

People should vaccinate their kids, true. But we're setting ourselves up on a witchhunt against those who choose not to. But is the witch hunt justified? That's why the numbers are important.

I fear that on both sides of this issue, people have merely freaked out and are not thinking logically. But how can we condemn people less there is legitimate reason?
 
mac said:
Yes. When did it occur?

edit: didn't read your whole reply.

So, was there a treatment for it in the 14th century? Is there a treatment for it now?

Is there a vaccine for it?
Click to expand...

There is a treatment now, yes. (antibiotics) There is no vaccine. (because the plague is not a virus)
 
Ikari said:
The numbers are important because of exactly what you just said "Nobody is saying 100% of the population must be vaccinated". So to maintain herd immunity, we need something between 0 and 100, what is it? Because people want to sit around and freak out about some folk who don't inoculate their kids, but has that aggregated to a level where it makes a true difference? There are places like Colorado that have vaccination levels for the Measles around 80%, has that reduction caused a statistically significant increase in cases? In deaths? In long term disabilities?

People should vaccinate their kids, true. But we're setting ourselves up on a witchhunt against those who choose not to. But is the witch hunt justified? That's why the numbers are important.

I fear that on both sides of this issue, people have merely freaked out and are not thinking logically. But how can we condemn people less there is legitimate reason?
Click to expand...

A "witch hunt" against people who put their children, and the children of others, at greater risk based on incorrect beliefs, yes. If by "witch hunt" you mean "saying mean things about them on a message board."

Personally, I'd say calling this a "witch hunt" is freaking out.
 
mac said:
In that type of investigation you disclose anything out of the ordinary. :shrug:
Click to expand...

I wonder how often it really happens. I know that many of my buddies didn't sign up for the draft either, so I have to wonder how many young men really do.
 
Deuce said:
There is a treatment now, yes. (antibiotics) There is no vaccine. (because the plague is not a virus)
Click to expand...

Well, then the Bubonic Plague (of earlier centuries) is hardly an example of what could happen if we don't get vaccinated against the Measles, now, is it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom