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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Lursa said:
Yup, dont know **** about the significance of herd immunity.

And there's no hysterics. Just risk vs reward and a total disregard in some cases because 500 dead kids isnt 'enough.'
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Why didn't we all die from these diseases pre-vaccine? Why didn't the Bubonic Plague wipe out humanity? I mean, there was ZERO herd immunity... right?
 
Lursa said:
What do you tell parents of any kids that get sick or die? Everyone knows even the simplest procedures can have unforseen consequences. As you said, life isnt fair.
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That is not what this is about... you are insulting people that don't see it your way. That is hypocrisy.
 
Lursa said:
You can check with WA St and about 30 dead infants in 2 seasons, starting another, where herd immunity has decreased for whooping cough when parents stopped vaccinating after decades of high vaccination rates.
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What's the immunization rate for WA? What were those circumstances? Where are the links? Where are the statistics?

Come on now, you want to play the Herd Immunization guru, let's see the numbers that back your claim.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Why didn't we all die from these diseases pre-vaccine? Why didn't the Bubonic Plague wipe out humanity? I mean, there was ZERO herd immunity... right?
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It wiped out like a third to a half of the population of Europe. Is.... is that not a sufficiently bad outcome for you!?

"They didn't have vaccines and look, only an ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIED!" This is an argument against vaccines!? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!
 
Lursa said:
So, it's still the law so you can disagree. And we've had the draft in the past and may again in the future.

And we restrict the 1st Amendment to protect public safety as well, so again, basing your personal opinion on precedent isnt going to get you anywhere.

(LOL, 'homicide' of one's own personal sovereignty. Nice try tho.)
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We don't have the draft, and most likely never will again. And it's not a "nice try" it's true.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Thank you for answering. No offense but this is one of those topics where non-parents input is next to irrelevant. A niece or nephew, which I have, are practically nothing compared to your own children and I won't even comment on a pet. Unless a person is putting their own child in a situation that person really has no idea what they are talking about.
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I knew you'd say that. also your opinion.

I cannot imagine anything more terrible, more painful, than the loss of a child, the suffering of a child. I think it's probably the worst thing in life that people go thru.

You have no idea how I feel about my family. My 19 yr old niece was diagnosed with cancer 1.5 yrs ago, you certainly cant tell me how I felt about it.

So we will continue to disagree.
 
mac said:
We don't have the draft, and most likely never will again. And it's not a "nice try" it's true.
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I'ts not true...it's your speculation. And we did have the draft and it was perfectly legal. It has not been declared 'illegal' or unConstitutional.
 
Deuce said:
Yeah. Because of the vaccinations.
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No, vaccinations are fairly new, and we survived without them. The reason a present day outbreak wouldn't cause much death is not vaccination. A vaccination doesn't treat one who is infected.
 
mac said:
We don't have the draft, and most likely never will again. And it's not a "nice try" it's true.
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The draft is still on the books. That's kind of why kids have to sign up for it or face up to five years in prison. You can however not sign up if you do so quietly. If you decide to however announce it on Facebook or twitter you will get arrested. Usually however if a young man fails to sign up for the draft the government just signs him up anyway.
 
Lursa said:
You didnt answer the questions in any practical sense. Congress cant necessarily wait for population consensus on war.
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It sure can... and does. At least with real wars prior to and including World War II. Both Korea and Vietnam were stupid wars and the draft was unconsitutional

You make your decision when you vote.
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Not to be subject to an illegal draft you don't...

You didnt tell me if we should just let those who took those risks just die if they cant pay.
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Yes I did. First sentence second paragraph. "I am for letting smokers pay for their own health costs, those that do not wear helmets them too... if they can't then yes, they might die. **** them. "

Idealism is one thing, real life practicality is another.
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I have no idea what you are talking about...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Why didn't we all die from these diseases pre-vaccine? Why didn't the Bubonic Plague wipe out humanity? I mean, there was ZERO herd immunity... right?
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That is more than I have time for. Shall I lend you a few books from my library? Seriously, that's all very well documented. And fascinating. I highly recommend the reading.
 
Lursa said:
That is more than I have time for. Shall I lend you a few books from my library? Seriously, that's all very well documented. And fascinating. I highly recommend the reading.
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It doesn't take any time... we didn't all die because herd immunity is not a requisite for surviving epidemics.
 
mac said:
No, vaccinations are fairly new, and we survived without them. The reason a present day outbreak wouldn't cause much death is not vaccination. A vaccination doesn't treat one who is infected.
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No, it just prevents infection and then prevents transmission to another person which prevents transmission to another person which prevents transmission to another person....

These outbreaks are far less dangerous because they are far more easily contained. Because most of the population is immune and can't be a carrier.
 
Lursa said:
That is more than I have time for. Shall I lend you a few books from my library? Seriously, that's all very well documented. And fascinating. I highly recommend the reading.
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So then you can reproduce the current numbers proving your claims on herd immunity inoculation levels, yes?
 
Lursa said:
You have no idea what you are talking about do you? Anything can mutate and become impervious to medicines or vaccines. But I wasnt speaking specifically about measles. Any epidemic.
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You can talk about any epidemic all you want, but if you are even trying to approach logic, you should be talking about the diseases we have vaccinations for.

And it's not a question of if, but when. If SARS hadnt been caught quickly and contained, it had the potential to do so. A new variation of the flu may do so someday....the Spanish Flu was a mutation of something very common.
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It's not when, it's if....most of these diseases are only a threat in areas where poor medical conditions exist....with or without vaccines.


Gratuitous vanity shot: Just part of my epidemiology library, doesnt include what's on my Kindle either.

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Then in a conversation about vaccinations....you should limit it to diseases we have vacines for. :shrug:
 
Bodhisattva said:
It sure can... and does. At least with real wars prior to and including World War II. Both Korea and Vietnam were stupid wars and the draft was unconsitutional



Not to be subject to an illegal draft you don't...



Yes I did. First sentence second paragraph. "I am for letting smokers pay for their own health costs, those that do not wear helmets them too... if they can't then yes, they might die. **** them. "



I have no idea what you are talking about...
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"and they might die."

OK, if you see our society 'practically' just letting people die, that's not remotely realistic.

And as I told Mac, the draft is still legal and it's only wishful thinking that allows people to say 'it will not happen again.' We dont know.

As for voting, do voters know or not know that war is a Congressional and sometimes executive decision? They should.
 
Deuce said:
Many do, but it's just objectively better to vaccinate anyway. Like seat belts: yes, there are some circumstances in which it makes things worse but not wearing a seatbelt is still stupid.

But vaccines further push the risk/reward equation in that failure to vaccinate also endangers others.
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In general I agree with that...
 
Henrin said:
The draft is still on the books. That's kind of why kids have to sign up for it or face up to five years in prison. You can however not sign up if you do so quietly. If you decide to however announce it on Facebook or twitter you will get arrested. Usually however if a young man fails to sign up for the draft the government just signs him up anyway.
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I didn't sign up for it.

:shrug:
 
mac said:
You can talk about any epidemic all you want, but if you are even trying to approach logic, you should be talking about the diseases we have vaccinations for.



It's not when, it's if....most of these diseases are only a threat in areas where poor medical conditions exist....with or without vaccines.




Then in a conversation about vaccinations....you should limit it to diseases we have vacines for.
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You dont get to make the rules in what I discuss. My copmments were entirely relevant to epidemics when vaccines are not the only recourse we have in minimizing them. Or didnt you know that?
 
Henrin said:
I didn't either. The government however signed both of us up anyway.
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No, it didn't. Which is why I explained why I didn't sign up at my last security investigation.
 
Lursa said:
You dont get to make the rules in what I discuss. My copmments were entirely relevant to epidemics when vaccines are not the only recourse we have in minimizing them. Or didnt you know that?
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Then we have nothing else to talk about. This is a conversation about vaccinations.

:shrug:

Good day.
 
Lursa said:
You dont get to make the rules in what I discuss. My copmments were entirely relevant to epidemics when vaccines are not the only recourse we have in minimizing them. Or didnt you know that?
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How come you can't produce the numbers to back your claim then? I mean, you're the expert here, you're comments are entirely relevant. There's data out there, there's statistics, there's knowledge; do you have any of it? Let's see it.
 
Ikari said:
So then you can reproduce the current numbers proving your claims on herd immunity inoculation levels, yes?
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English is not your strong suit either?

Again: demonstrating you do not understand herd immunity. :doh
 
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