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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Penn and Teller put it very succinctly, with an "F" bomb or two as well.

 
Lursa said:
Because their decisions are selfish...they can unintentionally kill people because they didnt bother to get proper training.
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You should probably be aware I didn't have to take a drivers test to get my license. I did however have to take a written test. I guess I never got my "proper training" for whatever that is worth.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is right... tell that to the parents of children that died as a result of getting vaccinated. Tell that to the parents of the kids that started drooling within minutes or went deaf soon after vaccinations. Tell that to the parents. Tell that to the parents that get scoffed at or ridiculed by the medical community just like some of the ****ing low life pieces of **** do on this site that it is idiotic ignorance to not vaccinate. Tell that to me... please. Call me ignorant. Really... please. Then we can see what kind of person you really are. Others are welcome to as well...
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As I've said, doctors can assess kid's likelihood of allergic reactions and other sensitivities. Medical dispensation (opt-outs) had been working quite well overall.

It's all about balancing risks. Most parents are smart enough to realize that their kids are better off being vaccinated, the risk/reward is better.

I dont take vaccine safety for granted, I have to think about it, and which ones, every year with my animals which seem to have even higher reactions and issues. I try to make educated decisions with the advice of my vets.
 
Lursa said:
As I've said, doctors can assess kid's likelihood of allergic reactions and other sensitivities. Medical dispensation (opt-outs) had been working quite well overall.

It's all about balancing risks. Most parents are smart enough to realize that their kids are better off being vaccinated, the risk/reward is better.

I dont take vaccine safety for granted, I have to think about it, and which ones, every year with my animals which seem to have even higher reactions and issues. I try to make educated decisions with the advice of my vets.
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I can't remember... are you a parent?
 
Bodhisattva said:
By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification

Suicide legislation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



...and that is unconstitutional. It violates the 5th Amendment...



True and although I find those unconstitutional an adult should be allowed to choose for themselves... not for anybody under 18 though as they are not adults.
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Well re: suicide they'll take your liberty from you anyway, as a psych case, at least for awhile and you can lose your kids too. So there are still major infringements on your right to do so. I disagree with it being illegal myself.

And while I dont like helmet laws and seat belt, the reasoning is that it falls on the taxpayers when people cant pay the medical bills and permanent hospitalization for vegetables, for example. The alternative is to let those people die (including letting them starve to death lying on a gurney when permanently physically or mentally disabled.)

I also dont believe in the draft but if needed I can also see how it serves the security of the entire country if enough people dont enlist. And in that case, then I think women should be drafted too.
 
Lursa said:
As I've said, doctors can assess kid's likelihood of allergic reactions and other sensitivities. Medical dispensation (opt-outs) had been working quite well overall.

It's all about balancing risks. Most parents are smart enough to realize that their kids are better off being vaccinated, the risk/reward is better.

I dont take vaccine safety for granted, I have to think about it, and which ones, every year with my animals which seem to have even higher reactions and issues. I try to make educated decisions with the advice of my vets.
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Pretesting should be mandatory... most parents are only told about how safe it is and to not worry... MOST. By then it is too late... until pre-testing is law there is no way I sign off on forcing vaccinations and even then I most likely wouldn't.

I calmed down but are you going to tell that to the parents of kids affected by vaccines?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am not Bman... your argument might apply with him but it does not with me.
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You raised an objection to my post, which was a response to him. But I'm glad you agree that extrapolation to such extremes is unwarranted. That was exactly the point I was trying to demonstrate.

Everyone agrees that the government can and should take reasonable measures to ensure that person A's actions don't cause undue harm to person B.

You are just drawing that reasonable measure line a bit differently than we are, so let's not act like this is some dramatic and fundamental philosophical difference.
 
Lursa said:
........

There are several things you dont seem to understand about it but one thing herd immunity helps with are those that cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons. Herd immunity provides them with *some* protection but bringing them into less contact with the disease.

Kids still die. If you dont want to pay attention until their bodies pile up, that's up to you.

It's been happening here in WA St for 3 yrs with whooping cough. Lack of vaccination has led to several dead babies a year. Not enough to rate in your system apparently.
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Yup, you need statistical significance. That's how measurements work, that's how you can tell if there are real issues. While people should be vaccinated, we're not all going to die because some haven't. The hysterics around this topic on both sides are unnecessary.
 
Ikari said:
Yup, you need statistical significance. That's how measurements work, that's how you can tell if there are real issues. While people should be vaccinated, we're not all going to die because some haven't. The hysterics around this topic on both sides are unnecessary.
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Yup, dont know **** about the significance of herd immunity.

And there's no hysterics. Just risk vs reward and a total disregard in some cases because 500 dead kids isnt 'enough.'
 
paddymcdougall said:
You want to have the benefits of society -i.e. public school - you follow the rules - vaccinate your kids.
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Telling people to follow your will is hardly convincing. If you can't support why people should respect your authority than there is no reason people should. Good day.
 
Lursa said:
Yup, dont know **** about the significance of herd immunity.
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Is that so? Do you have the numbers to show the significance of herd immunity? Colorado has had 80% vaccination rate on mumps for years, that's...what? 15% below what people claim is necessary for herd immunity? For several years? There should be some measurable results. Where are said results?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Pretesting should be mandatory... most parents are only told about how safe it is and to not worry... MOST. By then it is too late... until pre-testing is law there is no way I sign off on forcing vaccinations and even then I most likely wouldn't.

I calmed down but are you going to tell that to the parents of kids affected by vaccines?
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What do you tell parents of any kids that get sick or die? Everyone knows even the simplest procedures can have unforseen consequences. As you said, life isnt fair.
 
Lursa said:
What do you tell parents of any kids that get sick or die? Everyone knows even the simplest procedures can have unforseen consequences. As you said, life isnt fair.
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Where are all those dead, sick kids in states below herd immunity levels?
 
Lursa said:
Well re: suicide they'll take your liberty from you anyway, as a psych case, at least for awhile and you can lose your kids too. So there are still major infringements on your right to do so. I disagree with it being illegal myself.

And while I dont like helmet laws and seat belt, the reasoning is that it falls on the taxpayers when people cant pay the medical bills and permanent hospitalization for vegetables, for example. The alternative is to let those people die (including letting them starve to death lying on a gurney when permanently physically or mentally disabled.)

I also dont believe in the draft but if needed I can also see how it serves the security of the entire country if enough people dont enlist. And in that case, then I think women should be drafted too.
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If a society does not believe in the war there is no way that Congress should unconstitutionally force military service. The nation simply would not partake in the war. IF the war is serious enough or just enough the people will fight. History has proven that fact time and time again.

I am for letting smokers pay for their own health costs, those that do not wear helmets them too... if they can't then yes, they might die. **** them. I was heavy into extreme sports. Downhill mountain biking with all the huge ass jumps, etc. Cliff jumping. Big wave surfing and bodysurfing (25 feet when bodysurfing). Stuff like that. My problem if I get hurt. Same as in life. I have an attitude that many don't because they see things as another person's fault. When you live life on the edge you see things differently. Hell, I used to mess with rattle snakes in the wild even. Charged by a moose. Walked among bears.

Suicide is not illegal...
 
Deuce said:
You raised an objection to my post, which was a response to him. But I'm glad you agree that extrapolation to such extremes is unwarranted. That was exactly the point I was trying to demonstrate.

Everyone agrees that the government can and should take reasonable measures to ensure that person A's actions don't cause undue harm to person B.

You are just drawing that reasonable measure line a bit differently than we are, so let's not act like this is some dramatic and fundamental philosophical difference.
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Agreed...
 
Ikari said:
Where are all those dead, sick kids in states below herd immunity levels?
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Lursa said:
And herd immunity is not static and it's efficacy is fluid. There can be 'more' and 'less.'
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You can check with WA St and about 30 dead infants in 2 seasons, starting another, where herd immunity has decreased for whooping cough when parents stopped vaccinating after decades of high vaccination rates.
 
I also dont believe in the draft but if needed I can also see how it serves the security of the entire country if enough people dont enlist. And in that case, then I think women should be drafted too.
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Drafted units usually put everyone else at risk because they have no will to fight. Slaves have a tendency to be bad labor. Just something to think about. If you have no problems with breaks in the line, rampant deserting, and team kills, well, the draft is for you.
 
Deuce said:
"**** happens."

:)
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Absolutely agreed... and well played. ;)

**** happens and I don't mind what happened to my daughter. I do not blame anybody for what happened. I do, however, have little patience for people that play the hypocrisy game that you are an idiot or ignorant if you do not vaccinate and your child gets a disease but ignore the fact that many children have serious adverse reactions to the vaccine itself.
 
Bodhisattva said:
If a society does not believe in the war there is no way that Congress should unconstitutionally force military service. The nation simply would not partake in the war. IF the war is serious enough or just enough the people will fight. History has proven that fact time and time again.

I am for letting smokers pay for their own health costs, those that do not wear helmets them too... if they can't then yes, they might die. **** them. I was heavy into extreme sports. Downhill mountain biking with all the huge ass jumps, etc. Cliff jumping. Big wave surfing and bodysurfing (25 feet when bodysurfing). Stuff like that. My problem if I get hurt. Same as in life. I have an attitude that many don't because they see things as another person's fault. When you live life on the edge you see things differently. Hell, I used to mess with rattle snakes in the wild even. Charged by a moose. Walked among bears.

Suicide is not illegal...
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You didnt answer the questions in any practical sense. Congress cant necessarily wait for population consensus on war. You make your decision when you vote.

You didnt tell me if we should just let those who took those risks just die if they cant pay.

Idealism is one thing, real life practicality is another.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Absolutely agreed... and well played. ;)

**** happens and I don't mind what happened to my daughter. I do not blame anybody for what happened. I do, however, have little patience for people that play the hypocrisy game that you are an idiot or ignorant if you do not vaccinate and your child gets a disease but ignore the fact that many children have serious adverse reactions to the vaccine itself.
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Many do, but it's just objectively better to vaccinate anyway. Like seat belts: yes, there are some circumstances in which it makes things worse but not wearing a seatbelt is still stupid.

But vaccines further push the risk/reward equation in that failure to vaccinate also endangers others.
 
Lursa said:
No. But I have lots of nieces and nephews.
.....
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Thank you for answering. No offense but this is one of those topics where non-parents input is next to irrelevant. A niece or nephew, which I have, are practically nothing compared to your own children and I won't even comment on a pet. Unless a person is putting their own child in a situation that person really has no idea what they are talking about.
 
Lursa said:
You didnt answer the questions in any practical sense. Congress cant necessarily wait for population consensus on war. You make your decision when you vote.
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If the people of a nation have no will to fight then they deserve to be defeated.
 
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