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Thread: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

  1. #381
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    You'd consider it? Seriously?

    So if there was a resurgence of smallpox, you'd wait until after it reaches epidemic status to consider taking the smallpox vaccine?



    Unless they aren't.

    This is not an individual health issue, it's also a community health issue. There are many people who are unable to receive vaccines, because their health doesn't allow it or their immune systems are compromised. Vaccines are also highly effective, but not 100%; among other factors, the immunity can wear off. The more people who are immunized, the smaller the vectors for transmission.

    Plus, we know that mandatory vaccinations have completely eradicated certain diseases, such as smallpox and polio. I have no doubt that for those diseases, compulsory vaccination was the best available option.



    Good news! Flu vaccines aren't all that profitable. The profit margins are lower than other drugs, and they have to destroy all unused stock at the end of the year. They make a lot more money on boner pills and drugs to thicken your eyelashes than flu vaccines.



    Please, spare us such nonsense.

    Specific diseases are spread by poor conditions -- e.g. cholera will spread in communities without adequate water supplies. Chickenpox, for example, is airborne and highly contagious; prior to the vaccine, it routinely spread throughout otherwise healthy people, including in affluent communities.



    You don't get the chickenpox from eating Frosted Flakes. Before the chicken pox vaccine was issued in 1995, and long before Americans were as fat as they are today, chickenpox routinely spread throughout affluent communities.



    What is this, the Horatio Alger story?

    Polio didn't spread because of sugar, or big waist lines, or video games, or a lack of resources. Polio wasn't stopped by kids exercising outside and eating right. Polio was eradicated in the US because of a vaccine.

    Obviously, certain specific diseases are rare today because of better diets (scurvy) and running water (cholera). However, vaccination keeps a disease like the measles in check. The potential harms of the vaccines are extremely small, and vastly outweighed by the harms of a failure to vaccinate.
    I never said lifestyle changes would stop a disease in progress, I said they can prevent disease from taking hold. Big difference. It's why countries like China and India have survived throughout the ages. Every time there's a plague, or a famine, millions of people die, but compare that to the hundreds of millions that live because of their age old knowledge about bolstering the body. Modern medicine that is manufactured by the west doesn't know anything about prevention. They need a pathogen to have any purpose at all as a body of knowledge. If a healthy person walks into a doctor's office, they'll just get sent home.

    What I'm talking about is frankly beyond your comprehension because it would require you to release the superiority complex you have around your understanding of your current medical model.

    Also note that I acknowledged vaccines as part of disease control. I never said they are useless. Get your fingers out of your ears. I'm saying we need a more comprehensive system of prevention because as it stands we just tell people to eat well, exercise, and drink plenty of water as prevention for virtually any disease. Even the American Cancer Society says that crap. It's not doing anything. People have no self-awareness of their own bodies, how they work, their needs, and how to balance things that are out of balance in order to prevent disease.

    Anyway, I'm not getting involved in another lengthy argument about this. Do what you want, it really has nothing to do with me. I will never get a vaccine unless there is mortal danger. If a deadly disease were spreading to communities near me I'd get the shot but aside from that I'm happy with my body's immune system as is, thank you.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    That's a glib summary of your link.

    It's not 60% effective against the flu. It's almost full protection against three strains of the flu, and partial protection against the mutated strain (50/50).
    And if the three strains do not pop up this year it is not effective...
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    And if the three strains do not pop up this year it is not effective...
    And if they do, and people stop getting vaccines... see the current Measles situation, on steroids. Vaccines don't work retroactively, so you're screwed if you get the flu and it kills you.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You listed specific categories of people that are susceptible. We have an ongoing outbreak. I asked if, since you listed the susceptible groups, they are in fact the ones contracting the measles. Wouldnt it have been much more direct and honest for you to have said "you know...I simply dont know the answer to that question"? I mean...that IS what you said...
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Is that who has been contracting the measles during this latest outbreak?
    The original question asked was this.
    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    How does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk? Explain it. No one else has. They just keep chanting a nonsensical slogan.
    I answered the question asked. Clear and concise. Rebut my answer.
    Dishonest - nope-
    Not into BS crap about my being dishonest. Fair or not? Over to you

    The only ones who would know that answer are the health authorities.
    Call them and ask.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    And if they do, and people stop getting vaccines... see the current Measles situation, on steroids. Vaccines don't work retroactively, so you're screwed if you get the flu and it kills you.
    I am already screwed... I have a crazy ex-wife.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I am simply discussing risks real and potential that many here refuse to accept as a remote possibility or that they do exist but are irrelevant and that some parents need to just "take one for the team".
    I call shenanigans.

    Numerous people have discussed those risks. The more critical point is that the risks are extremely small. Few rational people hesitate to give their children aspirin, or cough medicine, or antibiotics because of the potential risks -- which are greater than those associated with vaccines.


    That's all... vaccines should NEVER be mandatory.
    Yes, actually, many vaccines should be mandatory.

    Polio and smallpox were disastrous diseases, and they were eradicated in the US thanks to.. wait for it... compulsory vaccination.

    There should be no question that a sufficiently dangerous disease merits compulsory vaccinations.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Those are facts. Additionally the two times I did get the flu vaccine... I got the flu that week. Only two times that I got the flu in that decade.
    Did you have a blood test that confirmed actual influenza or did you just get sick?

    A large portion of the population routinely misidentifies a cold or a stomach bug as "the flu," as the symptoms are similar. (albeit usually less severe)
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Oddly enough, however, when the statistically improbable happens, it can change your viewpoint.
    Yes, I'm aware that emotions are powerful. That's why when I observe someone reacting emotionally -- such as cursing out people on a public forum -- I say their opinions are not rational.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I call shenanigans.

    Numerous people have discussed those risks. The more critical point is that the risks are extremely small. Few rational people hesitate to give their children aspirin, or cough medicine, or antibiotics because of the potential risks -- which are greater than those associated with vaccines.



    Yes, actually, many vaccines should be mandatory.

    Polio and smallpox were disastrous diseases, and they were eradicated in the US thanks to.. wait for it... compulsory vaccination.

    There should be no question that a sufficiently dangerous disease merits compulsory vaccinations.
    Polio isn't compulsory... you want to be protected then get the vaccine... which STILL might not work and does eventually wear off
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I never said lifestyle changes would stop a disease in progress, I said they can prevent disease from taking hold.
    Not when it comes to chickenpox, measles, and other highly contagious diseases.

    What you said was, and I quote: "The root of epidemic disease is unhealthy populations with inadequate resources." You also blamed disease on American diet. Diseases like chickenpox, measles, polio, smallpox and the like don't spread because of those conditions. You can try to twist around it, but I feel fairly comfortable in my interpretation.


    It's why countries like China and India have survived throughout the ages.
    I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Humans have survived for thousands of years, all over the globe, despite living without any medications and in unsanitary conditions. The result is high infant mortality rates, people dying younger than they would today, and people suffering for years with painful conditions.


    Every time there's a plague, or a famine, millions of people die, but compare that to the hundreds of millions that live because of their age old knowledge about bolstering the body.
    I'll stick to the millions that die in those plagues, and who blame the disease on demons and spirits and deities, instead of knowing that it's a bacteria spread by fleas that are carried by rats.


    Modern medicine that is manufactured by the west doesn't know anything about prevention. They need a pathogen to have any purpose at all as a body of knowledge. If a healthy person walks into a doctor's office, they'll just get sent home.
    I'm sorry to tell you that this is nearly complete bull****.

    Vaccines are preventative medicine. Vaccines do work. You haven't presented a stitch of evidence to the contrary.

    Western medicine has figured out how we can avoid all sorts of diseases, such as the aforementioned scurvy, cholera, STD's.... Chinese acupuncturists didn't figure out that germs and bacteria cause disease; South American shamans didn't figure out that washing your hands helps prevent the spread of disease. I know of no evidence that non-Western medicine is actually any good at predicting diseases years in advance, let alone effectively preventing diseases.

    Thanks to empirical and scientific methods, we know that viruses exist; that germs exist; that bacteria can be beneficial and harmful; that genes play various roles in medical conditions, and so forth. We also know, using empirical and scientific methods, that non-Western methods generally don't work.

    It's not a superiority complex. It's results.


    Also note that I acknowledged vaccines as part of disease control. I never said they are useless. Get your fingers out of your ears.
    Right, so the reason why refuse to take vaccines unless there's a massive deadly epidemic is because you acknowledge they're a part of disease control. Heck, right in your own response you said you wouldn't get a vaccine unless your life was in mortal danger.

    I also find it bizarre that you criticize Western medicine for its alleged de-emphasis of prevention, yet you refuse to actually take one of the most effective tools we have to prevent common diseases.


    I'm saying we need a more comprehensive system of prevention because as it stands we just tell people to eat well, exercise, and drink plenty of water as prevention for virtually any disease. Even the American Cancer Society says that crap. It's not doing anything.
    The "Western" medical establishment is largely concluding that you should eat well, get roughly 30 minutes of exercise a day, avoid processed food, don't smoke, and this will prevent certain conditions -- like heart disease, diabetes and certain cancers.


    Do what you want, it really has nothing to do with me.
    Unfortunately, it does. As I mentioned previously, *cough* scientific evidence has established that this is not just an individual choice, it also affects the community around you. By refusing to get vaccinated, you are not only a freeloader on the protection offered by others, you offer those diseases another vector for transmission. You are, in a very small way, causing harm to your community. Since you claim to understand that vaccines work, I don't see how your choice is a rational one, or one to be proud of.

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