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Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Tettsuo said:
You do know that you can get the polio virus and get over it with no lasting or even traumatic effects, right? In fact, the vast majority of people that contracted polio didn't really have any issues getting over the disease, much like measles (specifically in developed countries).
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Actually it is estimated that 25 to 40 percent of the people who recovered from polio got post polio syndrome later in life.

From Post-Polio Syndrome Fact Sheet

Who is at risk?

While polio is a contagious disease, PPS cannot be caught from others having the disorder. Only a polio survivor can develop PPS.

The severity of weakness and disability after recovery from poliomyelitis tends to predict the relative risk of developing PPS. [Individuals who had minimal symptoms from the original illness are more likely to experience only mild PPS symptoms. A person who was more acutely affected by the polio virus and who attained a greater recovery may experience a more severe case of PPS, with greater loss of muscle function and more severe fatigue.

The exact incidence and prevalence of PPS is unknown. The U.S. National Health Interview Survey in 1987 contained specific questions for persons given the diagnosis of poliomyelitis with or without paralysis. No survey since then has addressed the question. Results published in 1994-1995 estimated there were about 1 million polio survivors in the U.S., with 443,000 reporting to have had paralytic polio. Accurate statistics do not exist today, as a percentage of polio survivors have died and new cases have been diagnosed. Researchers estimate that the condition affects 25 to 40 percent of polio survivors.
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Post-Polio Syndrome Fact Sheet: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)
 
iangb said:
The benefits of driving far, far outweigh the costs. Notice, though, that it is illegal to drive in an unsafe way; too fast, while drunk, or without a seatbelt.

The benefit of not vaccinating your child? You don't have to take the one-in-millions chance that they will be allergic to one of the components (I bet you are happy about them eating nuts, though). The costs are currently visible in California. It's not even a close comparison.
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I agree.

So far in 2015

More measles in California, including a infant in Santa Monica that led to the closing of a daycare and the quarantine of over a dozen infants. (2015)

Another quarantine in Riverside County, California - at least 40 unvaccinated students at Vista Murrieta High School won't be able to return to school because a school employee developed measles recently. (2015)

A case in Washington D.C. (2015)

At least 91 cases in California, including at least 58 that are linked to the Disneyland outbreak. (2015)

A student at Bard College in Dutchess County, New York, who exposed many people while traveling on an Amtrak train to Penn Station in New York City. (2015)

An unvaccinated woman in New Castle County, Delaware who had recently traveled out of the country. (2015)

A case on the University of Minnesota Twin Cities campus in a student that had recently returned from out of the country. Although others were exposed, it is considered to be a "highly immunized" population, so hopefully the outbreak won't spread. (2015)

A case in Fresno County, California, which may have exposed people on the labor and delivery ward of a hospital. (2015)

Two more cases in Arizona that are tied to the Disneyland outbreak, including a woman in Phoenix who may have exposed others up to 195 children at the Phoenix Children's East Valley Center, including a 3-year-old getting chemotherapy for leukemia. (2015)

An adult in Cook County, Illinois which in not linked to Disneyland. (2015)

A student at Valley High School in Las Vegas which led to the quarantine of 36 unvaccinated students until early February. (2015)
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http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm
 
stonewall50 said:
For one? Or For every vaccine? Additionally...what is the cost of caring for everyone with polio, smallpox, and so on?
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I read somewhere that it costs $10,000 for every case of the measles.
 
Tettsuo said:
You do know that you can get the polio virus and get over it with no lasting or even traumatic effects, right? In fact, the vast majority of people that contracted polio didn't really have any issues getting over the disease, much like measles (specifically in developed countries).
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Wait a second - you are unwilling to risk the side effects of a vaccine (very very small) but you ARE willing to risk that you will have complications from polio? (much much higher)

Might want to recheck the math on that.
 
paddymcdougall said:
I read somewhere that it costs $10,000 for every case of the measles.
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That would be both high and surprising in my view. I broke a wrist one year ago and the total bill, including outpatient surgery, follow up visits and physical therapy was $6,000.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I don't go to the doctor in general. Waste of time and money. Feel free to come to your own conclusion though...

One thing I love is how they say you can't get the flu from the shot but you side effects are this:

Runny nose
Wheezing
Headache
Vomiting
Muscle aches
Fever

And here are the symptoms of the flu itself:

Fever and extreme coldness (chills shivering, shaking (rigor))
Cough
Nasal congestion
Runny nose
Sneezing
Body aches, especially joints and throat
Fatigue
Headache
Irritated, watering eyes
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Yes, side effects can be similar but milder and shorter-lived. Influenza can literally kill you.
 
Tettsuo said:
You do know that you can get the polio virus and get over it with no lasting or even traumatic effects, right? In fact, the vast majority of people that contracted polio didn't really have any issues getting over the disease, much like measles (specifically in developed countries).
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You can survive a car crash without wearing a seatbelt but this is still a stupid, stupid decision.
 
Ockham said:
That would be both high and surprising in my view. I broke a wrist one year ago and the total bill, including outpatient surgery, follow up visits and physical therapy was $6,000.
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Does seem high. But CDC estimate is even higher -
CDC researchers say measles outbreaks cost U.S. health authorities up to $5M in 2011 - FierceVaccines


he CDC tallied the cost of the 16 outbreaks in a paper published in the current issue of the journal Vaccine. The calculation considered the time and resources local and state public health authorities allocated to manage the 16 outbreaks in the U.S. in 2011. A total of 107 people were infected that year in clusters that ranged from three to 22 cases. The CDC researchers estimate that each infection cost authorities $11,933 to $29,833. A further 113 isolated cases of measles occurred outside of an outbreak situation in 2011.

The CDC paper shows that management of these clusters and isolated cases requires significant investment from health authorities. And each dollar spent on measles has to be diverted from another area of public health. "Beyond the impact on local and state public health departments, responses to measles outbreaks also affect hospitals, clinics, as well as non-health public departments such as schools, universities and occasionally local police departments enforcing quarantines," the authors wrote.
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Even if it's half that number, the vaccine is a lot less pricey.
 
Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles

Tettsuo said:
Wrong. Natural immunity is far superior to the artificial resistance provided by vaccines. It's not even close.

I'm not suggesting anything. I stated a fact. Vaccines do not afford the same immunity as actually getting the disease.

Now, I'd love to see this scoreboard you're talking about.
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you declare this so-called fact.

Here is reality.


polio_fig_02.jpg


Stark, glaring reality. You see the chart prior to the vaccine? That's your natural immunity.

See the chart after the vaccine? Inferior artificial immunity.

Scoreboard.

The idea that natural immunity to these viruses is superior is LUDICROUS.
 
paddymcdougall said:
Does seem high. But CDC estimate is even higher -
CDC researchers say measles outbreaks cost U.S. health authorities up to $5M in 2011 - FierceVaccines




Even if it's half that number, the vaccine is a lot less pricey.
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True on the vaccine being less pricey. But the costs were administrative costs by the CDC to "manage" the outbreak and not hospital, doctor or nurse costs at least, not that was mentioned. Were I in government I'd want to see a breakdown of exactly what work went into that number by how many people and do a cost analysis and work study. Something there doesn't smell right or, these people who managed these outbreaks are getting paid big bucks.
 
Deuce said:
you declare this so-called fact.

Here is reality.


polio_fig_02.jpg


Stark, glaring reality. You see the chart prior to the vaccine? That's your natural immunity.

See the chart after the vaccine? Inferior artificial immunity.

Scoreboard.

The idea that natural immunity to these viruses is superior is LUDICROUS.
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Also, the method Tettsuo seems to be proposing is "expose your children to the disease and they will end up immune to it". That ignores the hidden addendum: 'if they survive'.
 
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Ockham said:
True on the vaccine being less pricey. But the costs were administrative costs by the CDC to "manage" the outbreak and not hospital, doctor or nurse costs at least, not that was mentioned. Were I in government I'd want to see a breakdown of exactly what work went into that number by how many people and do a cost analysis and work study. Something there doesn't smell right or, these people who managed these outbreaks are getting paid big bucks.
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"Administrative" costs that prevent the number of infections from quadrupling?
 
Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles

iangb said:
Also, the method Tettsuo seems to be proposing is "expose your children to the disease and they will end up immune to it". That ignores the hidden addendum: 'if they survive'.
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I'd like to see evidence that "natural" immunity is so very different and so very inferior. If polio and mmr are any indication, The "artificial" immunity seems nearly 100% effective. How much better can "natural" immunity be?

You gain immunity by giving your immune system something to fight, and your body learns go to fight that particular virus better. How does he think vaccines work, exactly?
 
Deuce said:
"Administrative" costs that prevent the number of infections from quadrupling?
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Were I in government, I'd like to see incontrovertible proof of that before I'd agree to it and then I'd still question the cost.
 
Ockham said:
Were I in government, I'd like to see incontrovertible proof of that before I'd agree to it and then I'd still question the cost.
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Did you feel the same way about the Ebola scare we had in the states in a few months ago?
 
minnie616 said:
Did you feel the same way about the Ebola scare we had in the states in a few months ago?
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From a financial perspective - absolutely.
 
Deuce said:
you declare this so-called fact.

Here is reality.

polio_fig_02.jpg


Stark, glaring reality. You see the chart prior to the vaccine? That's your natural immunity.

See the chart after the vaccine? Inferior artificial immunity.

Scoreboard.

The idea that natural immunity to these viruses is superior is LUDICROUS.
Click to expand...

LOL... nothing in this chart has anything to do with the development of natural immunity as opposed to the artificial immunity created by vaccines.

Did you get your booster shots? You'll need it, cause vaccine immunity is temporary.
 
iangb said:
Also, the method Tettsuo seems to be proposing is "expose your children to the disease and they will end up immune to it". That ignores the hidden addendum: 'if they survive'.
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Nonsense.

I stated a fact. I thought the pro-vaccine crew liked facts. I guess not.

Another fact that being ignored is vaccines are not 100% safe. That's a lie.

Statistics Reports

Every year, a significant amount of money is paid to people, by the US, for reported vaccine injuries.

It's a risk vs reward balance.

Also, I love this video.

 
Ockham said:
True on the vaccine being less pricey. But the costs were administrative costs by the CDC to "manage" the outbreak and not hospital, doctor or nurse costs at least, not that was mentioned. Were I in government I'd want to see a breakdown of exactly what work went into that number by how many people and do a cost analysis and work study. Something there doesn't smell right or, these people who managed these outbreaks are getting paid big bucks.
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I agree it would be interesting to see the breakdown. There may be something out there, I'm not interested enough to find it.

But prevention is almost always cheaper than curing.
 
Tettsuo said:
Hmmm, so you can have all of the symptoms of the flu, but not actually have the flu? If so, then what's causing those reactions?

Most of the people who are questioning vaccines, question the ingredients contained within the vaccine and their efficacy. As do I.
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*sigh*

Flu shots are not 100% effective. Not only that, if you have already been exposed to the flu before you get the shot, you can still get the flu since the vaccine has not yet had time to fully protect your system. That is also one reason you can get some symptoms of the flu but not get very sick....the vaccine has partially ramped up your system to fight it.

You can still get the flu for about 2 weeks after you get the shot too because, again, it takes time for it to fully protect your system...that varies for each person and again, it's not 100%.
 
Tettsuo said:
Wrong. Natural immunity is far superior to the artificial resistance provided by vaccines. It's not even close.
.
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Do you have sources for this?
 
Tettsuo said:
Did you get your booster shots? You'll need it, cause vaccine immunity is temporary.
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Only if "temporary" means "40-50 years."

Natural immunity also wears off. The reason why is that... vaccines use the existing immune system mechanisms to develop antibodies to the disease. You expose the person to an inert version of the disease; the body's antibodies develop a resistance; and the individual develops an immunity.

Adults only need a few boosters. It isn't a big deal, although keeping track can be a chore, as with any other method of keeping medical records.
 
Personally if people dont want to vaccinate their children let them be, this way if their child dies it will be their own fault and a good way to thin the herd from stupidity.
 
Tettsuo said:
Your article is addressing HOW Wakefield conducted his research (mostly), but that does NOT mean there is no connection between gut issues and autism.
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We already have evidence that autism is evident in prenatal stages. Epidemiological studies have clearly shown that there is no connection between vaccines and autism.

There is some correlation between issues with gut flora and autism. There is no evidence that problems with gut flora causes autism. We don't know if autism is the cause of gut issues, or if autism's behavioral issues are exacerbated by those problems.

There is absolutely no evidence that the residual antibiotics in vaccines, or the vaccines themselves, have any effect whatsoever on gut flora.

The spaghetti you're throwing at the wall doesn't stick.
 
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