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Thread: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    SCOTUS overturns its bad decisions. Precedent. Brown v Board 1954 overturned 1996 Plessy v Ferguson
    I wouldn't characterize a decision that allows government to protect the common welfare, with documented successes over generations, as a bad decision.

    They work for the majority...
    No, they have worked to eradicate a horrible disease like polio, and nearly eradicate several other major risks to public health, saving hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of lives in this country, many millions worldwide.

    You're pointing out that this comes at a small risk. That is true, but the risk is simply overwhelmed by the obvious, massive, life saving benefits.

    Sad fact is that is too late for a lot of kids... an exception is no good when you have brain damage or dead.
    I'm not sure what to say. Without vaccines it would be too late for hundreds of thousands of more kids, not to mention the brain damage for may more from the diseases we've nearly eliminated, birth defects, life long complications, plus all the savings in sickness and suffering of millions of others who suffered no permanent effects.

    The closest analogy I can think of are seat belts and airbags. No doubt they both have killed passengers who might have survived if they'd been thrown from the car, but anyone looking at those exceedingly rare exceptions to justify not wearing a seat belt or to disarm their airbags is irrational - the risks FAR outweigh obvious and proven benefits. And so we require them in all cars now and have laws that mandate use. Because of them more are alive. I think that's a good thing.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I wouldn't characterize a decision that allows government to protect the common welfare, with documented successes over generations, as a bad decision.
    Forcing people to violate their bodies IS a bad decision.

    No, they have worked to eradicate a horrible disease like polio, and nearly eradicate several other major risks to public health, saving hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of lives in this country, many millions worldwide.
    Yeah... that is the majority.

    You're pointing out that this comes at a small risk. That is true, but the risk is simply overwhelmed by the obvious, massive, life saving benefits.
    No. The risk is HUGE for those affected. That is the point. The selfishness of the majority just chalks that up to a, "hey, you just have to take one for the team" and that is bull****.

    I'm not sure what to say. Without vaccines it would be too late for hundreds of thousands of more kids, not to mention the brain damage for may more from the diseases we've nearly eliminated, birth defects, life long complications, plus all the savings in sickness and suffering of millions of others who suffered no permanent effects.
    Nobody said to make vaccines illegal. Your argument is bunk. If you want protection from the diseases then get vaccinated. Simple. Forcing others though should be illegal. It certainly is immoral.

    The closest analogy I can think of are seat belts and airbags. No doubt they both have killed passengers who might have survived if they'd been thrown from the car, but anyone looking at those exceedingly rare exceptions to justify not wearing a seat belt or to disarm their airbags is irrational - the risks FAR outweigh obvious and proven benefits. And so we require them in all cars now and have laws that mandate use. Because of them more are alive. I think that's a good thing.
    Most airbag deaths are children in front facing seats in the front seat... something avoidable. You can also turn off airbags or not wear a seat belt. Once you take the vaccine it is too late to do anything about it.
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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Forcing people to violate their bodies IS a bad decision.
    It's saved more lives than anything discovered in the last 150 years. It's a modern miracle. And it doesn't work with some participation.

    Yeah... that is the majority.
    Yeah, OK, if 99.99% or more is the "majority" then we agree.

    No. The risk is HUGE for those affected. That is the point. The selfishness of the majority just chalks that up to a, "hey, you just have to take one for the team" and that is bull****.
    The selfish are IMO the minority who socialize the risks of vaccines to others and enjoy the just miracle benefits of living in a world where these diseases have been all but eradicated. And the risk simply isn't "huge." It's objectively real but miniscule by any reasonable measure.

    Nobody said to make vaccines illegal. Your argument is bunk. If you want protection from the diseases then get vaccinated. Simple. Forcing others though should be illegal. It certainly is immoral.
    I think we've about beat this subject to death. I'm sure people have mentioned about 100 times on this thread that 1) vaccinations do not always work, 2) in some cases the protection degrades over time, and 3) many people cannot get vaccinated because of various health reasons. Etc. It's been said too many times to make it worth repeating again to be ignored again.

    Most airbag deaths are children in front facing seats in the front seat... something avoidable. You can also turn off airbags or not wear a seat belt. Once you take the vaccine it is too late to do anything about it.
    Most but not all deaths. And we mandate seat belts, and airbags, and we have laws that punish those who don't wear seatbelts. They've saved many lives, many more serious injuries, many $10s of billions in healthcare costs. And yet there is a risk that a seatbelt or airbag will kill you. Sounds like vaccines, but not nearly as effective as vaccines.

    Anyway, we can agree to disagree - neither of us is saying anything not already said many times on this thread. Peace.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The selfish are IMO the minority who socialize the risks of vaccines to others and enjoy the just miracle benefits of living in a world where these diseases have been all but eradicated. And the risk simply isn't "huge." It's objectively real but miniscule by any reasonable measure.

    I think we've about beat this subject to death. I'm sure people have mentioned about 100 times on this thread that 1) vaccinations do not always work, 2) in some cases the protection degrades over time, and 3) many people cannot get vaccinated because of various health reasons. Etc. It's been said too many times to make it worth repeating again to be ignored again.
    All I can say is, once you (plural) have had your child almost die due to a vaccine then I will listen to your argument with any real interest. Until then... blah.

    That said, vaccines work for the majority and are a good thing... they should simply NOT be mandatory. Making them mandatory is immoral and should be illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    {{{Shrug}}} You are free to travel. But you can't go to another country unless you have a passport. Is that banning your freedom to travel?

    Given that the latest epidemics come from people who traveled overseas and brought the disease back with them, seemed like another good place to stop the outbreaks from happening. I always thought people who went overseas got fully vaccinated anyway, but apparently they don't.

    I don't care if you like the idea or not. Just was offering it up as another way to cut down on people making the rest of us sick.
    This doesn't seem like a terrible idea. If you are going to travel overseas to somewhere where the possibility of getting a disease like this exists, then you should have to show proof of vaccinations to get a passport. While I'm not sure of the legality of the action, it would certainly cut down on the risks associated with the anti-vaccination movement.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    All I can say is, once you (plural) have had your child almost die due to a vaccine then I will listen to your argument with any real interest. Until then... blah.
    That's not a legitimate standard, but I understand your position. Although a mother whose infant was infected and died of a a preventable disease from someone who chose not to get vaccinated would have the opposite view.

    That said, vaccines work for the majority and are a good thing... they should simply NOT be mandatory. Making them mandatory is immoral and should be illegal.
    It's fine that you oppose mandates, but it cannot be immoral to mandate policy that is proved to save lives and suffering with incredibly small risks, especially when that mandate is an essential part of vaccines working effectively - the near universal coverage is what makes them effective.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    All I can say is, once you (plural) have had your child almost die due to a vaccine then I will listen to your argument with any real interest. Until then... blah.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's not a legitimate standard, but I understand your position. Although a mother whose infant was infected and died of a a preventable disease from someone who chose not to get vaccinated would have the opposite view.
    Exactly. If Bodhisattva's child had gotten extremely ill from measles from someone who wasn't vaccinated - while his child was too young to get the vaccine - he would have been arguing the other side and saying "All I can say is once you have had your child almost die due to someone not getting a vaccine...."

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, you shouldn't. That is simply ridiculous. It is an appeal to emotion to deny people their rights based on the probability of contracting a disease that you yourself are almost certainly protected against.
    We should certainly be allowed to ban the unvaccinated (by choice) from places that have regular contact. It isn't an appeal to emotion. It is an appeal to logic. What moron refuses to vaccinate today? There is no logical reason to do otherwise, barring known allergies.
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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    My thoughts...

    We have not only prevented small pox epidemics but we eradicated the disease.
    I had to have a smallpox vaccination before I started school in the early 1950s but my children who are in their 30s and early 40s did not need the vaccination because the disease was eradicated.

    Our goal should be to eradicate measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough , polio diphtheria, so children and adults of future generations do not have worry about epidemics of those diseases anymore.
    Anyone who can convince those idiots of that simple concept deserves a peace prize. Instead of someone who does nothing anyway.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    We should certainly be allowed to ban the unvaccinated (by choice) from places that have regular contact. It isn't an appeal to emotion. It is an appeal to logic. What moron refuses to vaccinate today? There is no logical reason to do otherwise, barring known allergies.
    No. It is an appeal to emotion because most of the things we vaccinate against today are rarely fatal diseases, particularly by themselves. It is a fear of death and watching other people suffer. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it certainly shows a lot of compassion), it is still based in emotion. The main emotion being fear.
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