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Thread: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You're pro vaccine first. (You liked Post #797)
    You're also claiming that Migrants weren't carrying disease (Your post #787)

    You say those claiming migrants carried disease into the US was wrong - and you are wrong because you do not have the data to support that as fact. That may be your OPINION, but that's not a fact. You're position on this subject isn't particularly difficult to figure out.
    What I've asked for is any evidence for a baseless claim that it was illegals who have caused the recent outbreaks. I've posted evidence it's not, you've done nothing but manufacture red herrings.

    But if the hair we're splitting is between some comment I've made when I said it was NOT the illegals (you claim I said it but don't quote me, perhaps I misspoke), versus the quote just above where I said, "the FACTS I have do not support the utterly baseless claim by the poster that illegals are the source" then you win. I can't KNOW the exact source of every outbreak of any disease in America. There is NO EVIDENCE illegals are the source, but unless I account for every occurrence for the past 50 years, I can't make absolute claims, and I don't care enough to account for every last case.

    Glad we got that settled.

    According to Henry - 1 Amish Missionary caused 300+ cases of measles in his VOX article. So the vaccination rate missing just 1 person out of a billion to his point, is disastrous. Do you disagree?
    Well, I made the point that even if everyone was vaccinated, some won't develop immunity, so OK, and so what?

    I'm asserting it's possible. You assert it's wrong. The CDC amazingly, isn't tracking illegal immigrants who have been dispersed throughout the US at the governments behest for disease. I wonder why that is?
    You're saying it's possible but have produced no data that it IS. It's possible the ground zero patients are all operatives from China intentionally infected by their handlers and sent here to carry disease and undermine the health of the U.S. as part of a plot to take over the world. You can't prove it's not them causing the outbreaks, CDC isn't tracking Chinese operatives. And so.....

    You're loss is you formed an opinion, stated it as fact - when you don't have the facts. That's the point, that's why you're at a loss. I say it's possible given the facts we have, and given the facts we do not have. You say it's impossible.
    If I ever said "it's impossible" please quote me directly. I've asked for evidence, and posted my own evidence that of the cases we know about NONE have been attributed to illegals. So any statement illegals are THE cause is objectively false, wrong, easily proved. They might be the source of one or more cases, but of those listed in the CDC reports I reviewed that CDC track to individuals, illegals from the countries you mentioned are the source of NONE of hundreds of cases of measles. Zero.

    But hey, do your own work and prove me misguided. It's what I've been asking for all along.....

    You also don't have the vaccination information for Guatemala, El Salvador or Honduras but you're sure those illegals cannot be spreading disease. A truly amazing super power you have there.
    Let's put it this way - I'm not actually sure of anything (we settled that above) but we have the same evidence it's illegals from those countries as we have evidence that the culprits are Chinese spies....

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    That doesn't address the logic. If it can happen with the Amish it can happen with a kid from Honduras, your own link said so. And VOX is a total left wing echo chamber... shall I show you?
    What is it about the Largest Measles outbreak in US history is due to the Amish traveling to the Philipines? Thus far there is no evidence that Hondurans have brought it here. And as I've shown, the immunization rates of central American counties is about on par with us. The real problem is those who are against vaccinations for whatever reason going abroad to countries where the disease is rampant and then bringing it back here. WHO | Measles
    Key facts

    Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
    In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
    Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
    In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
    During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
    Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are tools and are abusing their children and endangering others.
    Last edited by HenryChinaski; 02-06-15 at 02:32 PM.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What I've asked for is any evidence for a baseless claim that it was illegals who have caused the recent outbreaks. I've posted evidence it's not, you've done nothing but manufacture red herrings.

    But if the hair we're splitting is between some comment I've made when I said it was NOT the illegals (you claim I said it but don't quote me, perhaps I misspoke), versus the quote just above where I said, "the FACTS I have do not support the utterly baseless claim by the poster that illegals are the source" then you win. I can't KNOW the exact source of every outbreak of any disease in America. There is NO EVIDENCE illegals are the source, but unless I account for every occurrence for the past 50 years, I can't make absolute claims, and I don't care enough to account for every last case.

    Glad we got that settled.



    Well, I made the point that even if everyone was vaccinated, some won't develop immunity, so OK, and so what?



    You're saying it's possible but have produced no data that it IS. It's possible the ground zero patients are all operatives from China intentionally infected by their handlers and sent here to carry disease and undermine the health of the U.S. as part of a plot to take over the world. You can't prove it's not them causing the outbreaks, CDC isn't tracking Chinese operatives. And so.....



    If I ever said "it's impossible" please quote me directly. I've asked for evidence, and posted my own evidence that of the cases we know about NONE have been attributed to illegals. So any statement illegals are THE cause is objectively false, wrong, easily proved. They might be the source of one or more cases, but of those listed in the CDC reports I reviewed that CDC track to individuals, illegals from the countries you mentioned are the source of NONE of hundreds of cases of measles. Zero.

    But hey, do your own work and prove me misguided. It's what I've been asking for all along.....



    Let's put it this way - I'm not actually sure of anything (we settled that above) but we have the same evidence it's illegals from those countries as we have evidence that the culprits are Chinese spies....
    How DARE you expect to arrive at any kind of answer using evidence???? Don't you realize that by doing so, you're automatically persona non grata among the wingnut anti-vaxxers among the left AND the right????
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Logically if it can happen with one Amish missionary in the US (Ohio) it can happen with one illegal from Honduras crossing the Southern border. I get that you can't admit that ... it was your point and your VOX link that said so.
    Yes, and it can happen with one yuppie returning from a wine tasting trip to France, one businessman returning from China, one student from Brazil, my brother who travels to Mexico regularly, etc. etc. etc. etc.

    I guess your point is you're opposed to illegal immigration. Got it. Are you opposed to international travel, too? Should we seal our borders to all non-essential foreign travel to keep ourselves safe? They've got quite an outbreak in the UK - damn British!! Keep em out of my country!!

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    That doesn't address the logic. If it can happen with the Amish it can happen with a kid from Honduras, your own link said so. And VOX is a total left wing echo chamber... shall I show you?
    Sure it can happen. So that's why we all need to vaccinate ourselves.

    It can happen from a US citizen traveling overseas and bringing it back

    It can happen from a tourist from Europe visiting us

    And yes, it can happen from an illegal immigrant

    However, that last has NOT caused an outbreak yet. So why are you harping on it instead of running out and getting vaccinated?

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What I've asked for is any evidence for a baseless claim that it was illegals who have caused the recent outbreaks. I've posted evidence it's not, you've done nothing but manufacture red herrings.
    That's a nice strawman - I'm not claiming they caused the recent outbreaks, however I'm saying it's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But if the hair we're splitting is between some comment I've made when I said it was NOT the illegals (you claim I said it but don't quote me, perhaps I misspoke), versus the quote just above where I said, "the FACTS I have do not support the utterly baseless claim by the poster that illegals are the source" then you win. I can't KNOW the exact source of every outbreak of any disease in America. There is NO EVIDENCE illegals are the source, but unless I account for every occurrence for the past 50 years, I can't make absolute claims, and I don't care enough to account for every last case.
    That's not splitting hairs that is your position. I agree there is no evidence illegals are the source, however, you don't have all the facts - I've stated now multiple times the amount of basic information you DON'T have. My stance has been and continues to be they MAY be the cause and until we have the facts we won't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You're saying it's possible but have produced no data that it IS.
    Of course I have. I showed you the last 4 years of vaccinations according to Henry's link showing the % of vaccinations for the 3 countries. You ignored it.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's possible the ground zero patients are all operatives from China intentionally infected by their handlers and sent here to carry disease and undermine the health of the U.S. as part of a plot to take over the world. You can't prove it's not them causing the outbreaks, CDC isn't tracking Chinese operatives. And so.....
    I'm not trying to prove it's them - I'm seeking the facts. Since you're into being outrageous, how much is the government paying you to post misinformation on forums? See that's what I'm talking about, you're opinion is based on partial information and you've made your mind up and nothing will change it not even science and facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    If I ever said "it's impossible" please quote me directly.
    You just ridiculed the possibility... let me quote you:
    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's possible the ground zero patients are all operatives from China intentionally infected by their handlers and sent here to carry disease and undermine the health of the U.S. as part of a plot to take over the world. You can't prove it's not them causing the outbreaks, CDC isn't tracking Chinese operatives. And so.....
    And so that doesn't change anything. Sorry.



    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I've asked for evidence, and posted my own evidence that of the cases we know about NONE have been attributed to illegals. So any statement illegals are THE cause is objectively false, wrong, easily proved.
    Incorrect - by excluding the missing facts that WOULD prove your obviously false and misleading statement, your being dishonest. I've asked for evidence that these illegals were vaccinated - you haven't provided it. Therefore the possibility exists they HAVE spread the disease. No there's no direct evidence but the lack thereof requires an answer and you only are providing opinions because you mind is made up.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But hey, do your own work and prove me misguided. It's what I've been asking for all along.....
    You have a very nice opinion, based on nothing... but don't let that stop you from making statements out of ignorance. You don't have the facts and therefore your opinion is just that... an opinion based on nada.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Let's put it this way - I'm not actually sure of anything (we settled that above) but we have the same evidence it's illegals from those countries as we have evidence that the culprits are Chinese spies....
    The only thing you settled is your opinion .... until the rest of the facts can be gathered, anyone who makes a statement that these illegals who were dispersed across America could have brought with them disease, could be right. I know for a fact they are not wrong - because you have done nothing to prove them wrong. The evidence you provided actually strengthens their case so I'd suggest you post more unfounded opinions and less links.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I know all of this. Why it doesn't give them pause is actually simple, the development of symptoms coincides with most vaccine schedules, unrelated, but to the untrained eye it looks the same.


    I don't think we are anywhere close to threatening herd immunity with these few people thought that to can change.





    203 cases in a population of how many? cynically I think we are going to have to see a small outbreak among the unvaccinated to get them to change their minds.




    We are still at over 99% coverage and of course, and 90-94% is the magic number for measles. Last year there were 655 cases nationwide. I think in this case, media overhysteria may do some good. we will see.




    My point in ebola was the overhype about it and the simple disappearance of hysteria. we are now on measles.
    You are welcome to discount it, Rev. The fact that measles was declared eliminated back in 2000, yet we have seen the number of cases increasing due to the increasing number of people choosing not to vaccinate.
    A closer look makes this year's measles outbreak look even worse. Last year's 644 measles cases is an outlier compared to the previous decade. The number of measles cases in 2014 was the highest since 2000.

    Between 2001 and 2011, the median number of measles cases reported per year was 62. (During that period, the highest number of cases in a single year was 220, and the lowest was 37).

    Here's the glass-half-empty view: So far this year, there are already more cases of measles than during an entire typical year. Those are the words of Dr. Anne Schuchat, assistant surgeon general and director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases.
    Measles outbreak: How bad is it? - CNN.com

    While I agree and posted as such during the hair-on-fire hysteria over Ebola, that is was just that, hysteria, the threat that measles poses is greater. It's more infectious. The number of parents declining to give their children the MMR is increasing. Though vaccinated, some people will still get measles:
    Contained inside the data of the latest measles outbreak is a surprising — and troubling — number. Among the 51 measles cases linked directly to Disneyland, six of the people had received their measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    ...

    In the case of the Disneyland outbreak, four of the measles patients had received the full two doses; two had received only one dose.
    “But you still have 1 percent of people who have two doses of the vaccine who we call non-responders,” Patsy Stinchfield, director of Infection Prevention and Control and the Children’s Immunization Project at Children’s Hospitals and Clinics of Minnesota.

    Think about it this way. Say there was a massive measles outbreak, and 1 million people were infected. Roughly 10,000 of those people who had received both doses would still get sick.
    You could get the measles, even if you're vaccinated | PBS NewsHour

    So those who choose not to be immunized, put those who have been but still aren't immune, at risk. That is why this concerns me. We can't know who is not immune unless we undergo mass testing of the 90-95% who have been immunized to be sure they are immune. A ridiculous task I think you would agree. I think it a better idea for those with no underlying medical reason to receive vaccinations to spare those who can't and those who did the possibility of getting measles. As I posted above, measles can have terrible complications.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    What is it about the Largest Measles outbreak in US history is due to the Amish traveling to the Philipines? Thus far there is no evidence that Hondurans have brought it here. And as I've shown, the immunization rates of central American counties is about on par with us. The real problem is those who are against vaccinations for whatever reason going abroad to countries where the disease is rampant and then bringing it back here. WHO | Measles Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are tools and are abusing their children and endangering others.
    So did the illegals bring their immunization certificates with them when the crossed the US border illegally?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    You are welcome to discount it, Rev. The fact that measles was declared eliminated back in 2000, yet we have seen the number of cases increasing due to the increasing number of people choosing not to vaccinate.


    Measles outbreak: How bad is it? - CNN.com

    While I agree and posted as such during the hair-on-fire hysteria over Ebola, that is was just that, hysteria, the threat that measles poses is greater. It's more infectious. The number of parents declining to give their children the MMR is increasing. Though vaccinated, some people will still get measles:



    You could get the measles, even if you're vaccinated | PBS NewsHour

    So those who choose not to be immunized, put those who have been but still aren't immune, at risk. That is why this concerns me. We can't know who is not immune unless we undergo mass testing of the 90-95% who have been immunized to be sure they are immune. A ridiculous task I think you would agree. I think it a better idea for those with no underlying medical reason to receive vaccinations to spare those who can't and those who did the possibility of getting measles. As I posted above, measles can have terrible complications.


    Overall I agree with you, if your non actions puts others at harm, it needs to be addressed. I still see it for what it is though. hype, but good will come out of this hype. maybe even prevent that which I don't think is so, but could be.

    if that makes sense.
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    Sure it can happen.
    Thanks!
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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