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Thread: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What's my position? I don't have any idea what you think it is, but among other points, someone made a claim that it was dirty illegal diseased children who have caused the recent resurgence. I've posted data, including the CDC report, that indicates he's wrong. I've requested, but seen NOTHING to indicate these illegal ARE the source. You have none, the person I responded to presented none.
    You posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL
    The fact is you've cited nothing to indicate that the measles or any other outbreak can be traced to the invasion of dirty, diseased illegal children.
    You're pro vaccine first. (You liked Post #797)
    You're also claiming that Migrants weren't carrying disease (Your post #787)

    You say those claiming migrants carried disease into the US was wrong - and you are wrong because you do not have the data to support that as fact. That may be your OPINION, but that's not a fact. You're position on this subject isn't particularly difficult to figure out.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So the FACTS I have do not support the utterly baseless claim by the poster that illegals are the source, and the data you're distracting us all with wouldn't answer that question anyway. The vaccination rates could be 99.9999999% for the actual people crossing the border, and there would still be maybe 5-15% for whom the vaccination didn't work, and it could be they who got sick and spread it here. Or the vaccination rate could be 0%, and unless one of the illegals was ground zero, that fact STILL doesn't help us figure out the cause of the recent outbreak.
    According to Henry - 1 Amish Missionary caused 300+ cases of measles in his VOX article. So the vaccination rate missing just 1 person out of a billion to his point, is disastrous. Do you disagree?


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But if you want to convince us with facts, CDC has records going back a ways that identifies the country of origin. If you want to assert Central America is the source, more specifically illegals, then start looking over CDC reports and find something to support your claim. I did the work for you on one report - none from the countries you're so concerned about. But if you want to dig through more, have at it and get back to us.
    I'm asserting it's possible. You assert it's wrong. The CDC amazingly, isn't tracking illegal immigrants who have been dispersed throughout the US at the governments behest for disease. I wonder why that is?


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Until then, this appears to be a giant exercise in manufacturing red herrings. I can't for the life of me grasp what point you're trying to make in the context of this discussion. Guatemala has a vaccination rate of XX%. What am I supposed to conclude from that data? It's roughly that of the U.S. and France is one conclusion. Now what? We need to secure our borders? Not the subject of this thread. So I'm at a loss.
    You're loss is you formed an opinion, stated it as fact - when you don't have the facts. That's the point, that's why you're at a loss. I say it's possible given the facts we have, and given the facts we do not have. You say it's impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    BTW, you asked me for the vaccination records of three individuals from Brazil, Canada and Chile. Obviously I don't have that info, but they're not from your countries of concern, so what would it add to this discussion if I could locate those individuals' health records going back to their birth? It's another red herring.
    You also don't have the vaccination information for Guatemala, El Salvador or Honduras but you're sure those illegals cannot be spreading disease. A truly amazing super power you have there.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    wait, aren't we all mostly vaccinated? select few kooks?


    Is it more scary or less scary than ebola?
    The number of those choosing not to inoculate their children has been increasing. Measles was considered eliminated in 2000. But yet here we are certainly due in part to the now discredited Lancet Journal article linking MMR immunizations to Autism, first published in 1998. The Lancet retracts Andrew Wakefield’s article « Science-Based Medicine

    That study was partially withdrawn in 2004 and then fully discredited 2010. Correlation does not always equal causation, but that study and the hysteria it caused, thanks in part to Jenny McCarthy and her campaign which began in 2007 (3 years after the Lancet had partially discredited Wakefield's study):

    Another theory, latched onto by Jenny McCarthy, is that the MMR vaccine in particular causes autism. Dr. Andrew Wakefield publicized this supposed link in a famous article in the British medical journal The Lancet. It has since been thoroughly debunked. The Lancet retracted Wakefield’s paper, and the British Medical Journal reported that he “falsified data.” He had his medical license revoked. All of which should have been enough to give the anti-vaxxers pause.

    Another theory, latched onto by Jenny McCarthy, is that the MMR vaccine in particular causes autism. Dr. Andrew Wakefield publicized this supposed link in a famous article in the British medical journal The Lancet. It has since been thoroughly debunked. The Lancet retracted Wakefield’s paper, and the British Medical Journal reported that he “falsified data.” He had his medical license revoked. All of which should have been enough to give the anti-vaxxers pause.)
    The recent measles outbreaks have taken hold in communities where the population is not mostly vaccinated.

    This is a very in-depth article explaining how "herd protection" should and did work, until the anti-vax hysteria has diminished the protection of being "mostly vaccinated". Even at 90-95% of coverage, herd immunity may not protect the population.

    Why a few unvaccinated children are an even bigger threat than you think - The Washington Post

    The assumption underlying the calculation for herd immunity is that people are mixing randomly, and that vaccination is distributed equally among the population. But that is not true. As the Disneyland measles outbreak has demonstrated, there are communities whose members are much more likely to refuse vaccination than others.

    Geographically, vaccination coverage is highly variable on the level of states, counties, and even schools. We’re fairly certain that opinions and sentiments about vaccination can spread in communities, which may in turn lead to polarized communities with respect to vaccination
    ...

    Herd immunity against measles requires that 90 percent to 95 percent of theentire population are immune, whereas vaccination coverage is measured as the percentage vaccinated of the target population – which only includes people who are eligible for vaccination. This means that to achieve 95 percent immunity in the population for measles, vaccination coverage needs to be higher than 95 percent. This is the scientific argument for a public health policy that aims at 100 percent vaccination coverage.
    Ebola is less scary in that it is not nearly as communicable as measles are.
    Although the outbreak in West Africa is increasing exponentially, Ebola is not as contagious as many other infectious diseases. Transmission requires direct contact with infected body fluids. Measles, influenza, and pertussis (whooping cough), on the other hand, are spread by respiratory secretions. They are much more explosive because transmission does not require direct contact with an infected person.
    Why you should worry less about Ebola and more about measles

    A person with Ebola will infect 1.5 to 2.2 people (on average) whereas a person with measles will infect 12 to 18 people. This is because Ebola is not transmissible until symptoms appear. Measles can be communicated for several days before any symptoms are visible.

    So yeah, Ebola is scary because if you get it, the chances are very great you'll die unless you catch it early, but you are much less likely to get it due to how it is transmitted.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You posted:



    You're pro vaccine first. (You liked Post #797)
    You're also claiming that Migrants weren't carrying disease (Your post #787)

    You say those claiming migrants carried disease into the US was wrong - and you are wrong because you do not have the data to support that as fact. That may be your OPINION, but that's not a fact. You're position on this subject isn't particularly difficult to figure out.

    According to Henry - 1 Amish Missionary caused 300+ cases of measles in his VOX article. So the vaccination rate missing just 1 person out of a billion to his point, is disastrous. Do you disagree?


    I'm asserting it's possible. You assert it's wrong. The CDC amazingly, isn't tracking illegal immigrants who have been dispersed throughout the US at the governments behest for disease. I wonder why that is?


    You're loss is you formed an opinion, stated it as fact - when you don't have the facts. That's the point, that's why you're at a loss. I say it's possible given the facts we have, and given the facts we do not have. You say it's impossible.


    You also don't have the vaccination information for Guatemala, El Salvador or Honduras but you're sure those illegals cannot be spreading disease. A truly amazing super power you have there.
    Isn't it logical to go with what the professionals do know pertaining to Ohio rather than red herring stuff that there is no evidence for. I get it that illegal immigration bothers you, and that this measles thing could be a useful tool to help prop up your position, but come on now..
    Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can sit in a boat, drinking beer all day while you fool around with his Woman.

  4. #1124
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    The anti vaccination crowd don't care unless it lands directly on their doorstep and their families contract the disease. **** everybody else.
    The anti-vaccine crowd isn't afraid of getting chickenpox and measles. chance you have of getting very ill or dying from measles is minuscule.
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    The number of those choosing not to inoculate their children has been increasing. Measles was considered eliminated in 2000. But yet here we are certainly due in part to the now discredited Lancet Journal article linking MMR immunizations to Autism, first published in 1998. The Lancet retracts Andrew Wakefield’s article « Science-Based Medicine

    That study was partially withdrawn in 2004 and then fully discredited 2010. Correlation does not always equal causation, but that study and the hysteria it caused, thanks in part to Jenny McCarthy and her campaign which began in 2007 (3 years after the Lancet had partially discredited Wakefield's study):

    Another theory, latched onto by Jenny McCarthy, is that the MMR vaccine in particular causes autism. Dr. Andrew Wakefield publicized this supposed link in a famous article in the British medical journal The Lancet. It has since been thoroughly debunked. The Lancet retracted Wakefield’s paper, and the British Medical Journal reported that he “falsified data.” He had his medical license revoked. All of which should have been enough to give the anti-vaxxers pause.

    I know all of this. Why it doesn't give them pause is actually simple, the development of symptoms coincides with most vaccine schedules, unrelated, but to the untrained eye it looks the same.


    I don't think we are anywhere close to threatening herd immunity with these few people thought that to can change.


    The recent measles outbreaks have taken hold in communities where the population is not mostly vaccinated.

    203 cases in a population of how many? cynically I think we are going to have to see a small outbreak among the unvaccinated to get them to change their minds.


    This is a very in-depth article explaining how "herd protection" should and did work, until the anti-vax hysteria has diminished the protection of being "mostly vaccinated". Even at 90-95% of coverage, herd immunity may not protect the population.
    We are still at over 99% coverage and of course, and 90-94% is the magic number for measles. Last year there were 655 cases nationwide. I think in this case, media overhysteria may do some good. we will see.

    Why a few unvaccinated children are an even bigger threat than you think - The Washington Post



    Ebola is less scary in that it is not nearly as communicable as measles are.


    Why you should worry less about Ebola and more about measles

    A person with Ebola will infect 1.5 to 2.2 people (on average) whereas a person with measles will infect 12 to 18 people. This is because Ebola is not transmissible until symptoms appear. Measles can be communicated for several days before any symptoms are visible.

    So yeah, Ebola is scary because if you get it, the chances are very great you'll die unless you catch it early, but you are much less likely to get it due to how it is transmitted.

    My point in ebola was the overhype about it and the simple disappearance of hysteria. we are now on measles.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    the state with the most children without vaccinations is California at almost 8%. Mississippi has less than .5%.

    If anybody has a political finger to point on this issue, point it at those occupying the DEEP BLUE states. to do otherwise is to show your ignorance.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    The anti-vaccine crowd isn't afraid of getting chickenpox and measles. chance you have of getting very ill or dying from measles is minuscule.
    WHO and the CDC disagree with your statement. And the numbers are what they are because of vaccination.
    Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can sit in a boat, drinking beer all day while you fool around with his Woman.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    Isn't it logical to go with what the professionals do know pertaining to Ohio rather than red herring stuff that there is no evidence for. I get it that illegal immigration bothers you, and that this measles thing could be a useful tool to help prop up your position, but come on now..
    Logically if it can happen with one Amish missionary in the US (Ohio) it can happen with one illegal from Honduras crossing the Southern border. I get that you can't admit that ... it was your point and your VOX link that said so.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Logically if it can happen with one Amish missionary in the US (Ohio) it can happen with one illegal from Honduras crossing the Southern border. I get that you can't admit that ... it was your point and your VOX link that said so.
    It can, however they traced this outbreak to the Amish. I know that is hard to compartmentalize, however it's true. It's not a left-wing conspiracy.
    Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he can sit in a boat, drinking beer all day while you fool around with his Woman.

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    re: Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    It can, however they traced this outbreak to the Amish. I know that is hard to compartmentalize however it's true. It's not a left-wing conspiracy.
    That doesn't address the logic. If it can happen with the Amish it can happen with a kid from Honduras, your own link said so. And VOX is a total left wing echo chamber... shall I show you?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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