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Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CAPPI

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Caine said:
Im still trying to figure out why this oil pipeline is such a big deal.

Can anyone explain why it matters whether or not yet another oil pipeline from Canada into the U.S. is built..... bringing in, from what I have heard, the ****tiest quality of oil imaginable.
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Besides the eminent domain issue given to a private forgiven country , I think it is because of type of oil that the pipeline will carry.

The oil is a
heavy crude, or bitumen, mined in the tar sands of Alberta, Canada, which is thicker and rawer than the oil extracted in the United States. ...
the leaden crude from the Alberta tar sands erodes pipelines faster than the oil the U.S. is used to shipping: Bitumen is so thick, it has to be transported at higher pressures and temperatures, and it must be diluted with gas before it can flow, which can lead to violent pressure swings inside the pipeline.
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http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115624/exxon-oil-spill-arkansas-2013-how-pipeline-burst-mayflower
 
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Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
Few in number. Regardless, infrastructure is something the community builds for the common good.
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The only common good to come out of it is TransCanada gets their pockets lined.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

iacardsfan said:
The only common good to come out of it is TransCanada gets their pockets lined.
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It is a valuable addition to US infrastructure and will underpin growth in the Gulf refinery and distribution sector.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
It is a valuable addition to US infrastructure and will underpin growth in the Gulf refinery and distribution sector.
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So those companies can continue to take losses due to low oil prices!
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

iacardsfan said:
So those companies can continue to take losses due to low oil prices!
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They don't lose money. It's all throughput. Their margin remains the same.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
They don't lose money. It's all throughput. Their margin remains the same.
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At the expense of us.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

iacardsfan said:
At the expense of us.
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No. Producer prices fall and consumer prices fall. Refiners and distributors take a standard percentage.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
It is a valuable addition to US infrastructure and will underpin growth in the Gulf refinery and distribution sector.
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There are MANY other oil pipelines that already come out of Canada.

Whats the big deal?
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gratis said:
Farmers aren't the only obstruction. The Proposed Pipeline Runs over Lokota Native American Reserves, and the People there are vehemently against it, even proposing violence to Construction teams. Our government hasn't respected our historical treaties with the Indians, the fact that we'd build this over what little land they have left is the height of bureaucratic ignorance, and the sole reason I oppose the pipeline as is. It should have an alternate build path before it passes.
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I'll post this from a 2012 article in case you, like others are only relying on information that confirms their own arguments....

“We walk the entire pipeline route and identify sites and alter the route of our pipeline to avoid those sites,” said Thompson of TransCanada.

snip

"In other states, TransCanada’s route for the Keystone XL pipeline neatly avoids Native American lands."

snip

"Many tribal leaders in Oklahoma, including Kurak, have no objection to Trans*Canada’s pipeline plan."

Keystone XL pipeline raises tribal concerns - The Washington Post

This is a good story outlining both arguments, however, I gotta say that the opposition to Keystone within the tribal areas according to this, is minimal at best.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Caine said:
There are MANY other oil pipelines that already come out of Canada.

Whats the big deal?
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Exactly, what's the big deal? This is the most studied pipeline in history, and already approved for some time now by our State dept. studies. So, what's the real agenda here? Strangling oil maybe?

Look, pipelines like any other infrastructure doesn't last forever, and if we can keep ahead of things like pipelines by building new ones, as others age, that's a good thing if you ask me....
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

iacardsfan said:
The only common good to come out of it is TransCanada gets their pockets lined.
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So oil is now no longer a global commodity? When did that happen?
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

My take:

The pipeline should be allowed, but no land will be granted on the basis of Eminent Domain. The owner of the pipeline has to provide enough funds to persuade land owners on their own, or find a different route for its construction.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
I'll post this from a 2012 article in case you, like others are only relying on information that confirms their own arguments....

“We walk the entire pipeline route and identify sites and alter the route of our pipeline to avoid those sites,” said Thompson of TransCanada.

snip

"In other states, TransCanada’s route for the Keystone XL pipeline neatly avoids Native American lands."

snip

"Many tribal leaders in Oklahoma, including Kurak, have no objection to Trans*Canada’s pipeline plan."

Keystone XL pipeline raises tribal concerns - The Washington Post

This is a good story outlining both arguments, however, I gotta say that the opposition to Keystone within the tribal areas according to this, is minimal at best.
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A more recent ( November 2014) publication from the Lakota Voice declares the as an act of war.


House Vote in Favor of the Keystone XL Pipeline an Act of War

POSTED ON NOVEMBER 15, 2014

Rosebud, SD – In response to today’s vote in the U.S. House of Representatives to authorize the Keystone XL tar sands pipeline, the Rosebud Sioux Tribal President announced that the Rosebud Sioux Tribe (Sicangu Lakota Oyate) recognizes the authorization of this pipeline as an act of war.

The Tribe has done its part to remain peaceful in its dealings with the United States in this matter, in spite of the fact that the Rosebud Sioux Tribe has yet to be properly consulted on the project, which would cross through Tribal land, and the concerns brought to the Department of Interior and to the Department of State have yet to be addressed.

“The House has now signed our death warrants and the death warrants of our children and grandchildren. The Rosebud Sioux Tribe will not allow this pipeline through our lands,” said President Scott of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe. “We are outraged at the lack of intergovernmental cooperation. We are a sovereign nation and we are not being treated as such. We will close our reservation borders to Keystone XL. Authorizing Keystone XL is an act of war against our people.”

In February of this year, the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and other members of the Great Sioux Nation adopted Tribal resolutions opposing the Keystone XL project.

“The Lakota people have always been stewards of this land,” added President Scott. “We feel it is imperative that we provide safe and responsible alternative energy resources not only to Tribal members but to non-Tribal members as well. We need to stop focusing and investing in risky fossil fuel projects like TransCanada’s Keystone XL pipeline. We need to start remembering that the earth is our mother and stop polluting her and start taking steps to preserve the land, water, and our grandchildren’s future.”

The Rosebud Sioux Tribe, along with several other South Dakota Tribes, stand together in opposition to risky and dangerous fossil fuel projects like TransCanada’s Keystone XL. The proposed route of TransCanada’s Keystone XL pipeline crosses directly through Great Sioux Nation (Oceti Sakowin) Treaty lands as defined by both the 1851 and 1868 Fort Laramie Treaties and within the current exterior boundaries of the Rosebud Sioux Reservation and Cheyenne River Sioux Reservation.
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http://www.lakotavoice.com/2014/11/15/house-vote-in-favor-of-the-keystone-xl-pipeline-an-act-of-war/
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
A more recent ( November 2014) publication from the Lakota Voice declares the as an act of war.



House Vote in Favor of the Keystone XL Pipeline an Act of War
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Yes, I saw those...But you are relying on hold outs....Now, I don't know if they are holding out for more money, or what their deal is but if we allow single entities, or individuals to hold up entire infrastructure projects based on little more than out or proportion, or false concerns then we'd never get anything done in this nation....Maybe that is the goal eh?
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
Yes, I saw those...But you are relying on hold outs....Now, I don't know if they are holding out for more money, or what their deal is but if we allow single entities, or individuals to hold up entire infrastructure projects based on little more than out or proportion, or false concerns then we'd never get anything done in this nation....Maybe that is the goal eh?
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The publication she quoted is controlled by professional protesters. They are the Indian version of OWS.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Caine said:
My take:

The pipeline should be allowed, but no land will be granted on the basis of Eminent Domain. The owner of the pipeline has to provide enough funds to persuade land owners on their own, or find a different route for its construction.
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I agree.

Allowing a for profit private foreign company to use private property under the guise of Eminent Domain screams misuse of Eminent Domain to me.

Emanate Domain was supposed to be only used but our government for roads, bridges, etc. and by public utility companies.
 
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Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
Yes, I saw those...But you are relying on hold outs....Now, I don't know if they are holding out for more money, or what their deal is but if we allow single entities, or individuals to hold up entire infrastructure projects based on little more than out or proportion, or false concerns then we'd never get anything done in this nation....Maybe that is the goal eh?
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The pipeline is not a USA infrastructure project.
The pipeline is owned by a private company and a foreign country at that!

Edited to add:

And if the holdout is for more money than the company should either offer them more money or go around the Indian Nation property.
 
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Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
I agree.

Allowing a for profit private foreign company to use private property under the guise of Eminent Domain screams misuse of Eminent Domain to me.

Emanate Domain was supposed to be only used but our government for roads, bridges, etc. and by public utility companies.
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"Roads, Bridges, etc..." It is the "etc" that you conveniently leave open in your argument...Can you show me Minnie where the United States has to gain your approval on projects of 'free trade' that the State Dept, has signed off on?

The pipeline is not a USA infrastructure project.
The pipeline is owned by a private company and a foreign country at that!
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You can't have it both ways Minnie....Whenever we talk about more drilling in the US, one of the arguments is that it won't benefit us because it is a global market, now you turn on a dime and scream about private companies making profit....

And if the holdout is for more money than the company should either offer them more money or go around the Indian Nation property.
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My thought is that they will offer, and negotiate until it becomes clear that ANY price won't be enough for some, then the project will take into consideration their concerns, and do it anyway....At some point, you can't allow an individual, or individual group to hold out as a kind of blackmail against a massive project like this.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

apdst said:
I can't prove you didn't do something. Get it now?
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What I get was you invented my supposed support for using eminent domain for wind turbines and got called on it. Maybe next time it would help if you just debate me on positions I actually support?
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
Good for you, but that's not the most efficient or safest way to do it, and it's not the way that's best for the US.
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For "best for the U.S." or a "best for Canadian oil companies and a few companies in the U.S." There really is a difference, which is why the whole "eminent domain" thing is an issue.

No one objects to the idea of eminent domain for projects that serve the public. Only conservatives on this thread have no issues with eminent domain to help out a few players in the energy sector.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Jack Hays said:
It is a valuable addition to US infrastructure and will underpin growth in the Gulf refinery and distribution sector.
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Where's the public use or benefit? If it's JOBS!!!, then pretty much any major project means landowners have to make way for the Jobs Creators! Shouldn't be a problem - heck, most landowners will be "delighted" to sell their farms and homes to make way for progress!
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
...



My thought is that they will offer, and negotiate until it becomes clear that ANY price won't be enough for some, then the project will take into consideration their concerns, and do it anyway....At some point, you can't allow an individual, or individual group to hold out as a kind of blackmail against a massive project like this.
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Not blackmail when they already have a way around that land.

If you look at the TransCanada keystone maps they already have a route mapped out( in red ) that avoids the Indian Nation.( the proposed blue dotted line goes through the Indian Nation property.)

They should use the route in red and be at peace with the Indian Nation.

View Keystone XL Pipeline Maps | Keystone XL Pipeline
 
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Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
So oil is now no longer a global commodity? When did that happen?
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when the market was flooded to the point oil being half the price of what it was earlier this year.
 
Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
...

You can't have it both ways Minnie....Whenever we talk about more drilling in the US, one of the arguments is that it won't benefit us because it is a global market, now you turn on a dime and scream about private companies making profit....
....
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I am all for private companies making a profit. Using eminent domain to go through privately owned land ( especially land deeded to the American Indians in a peace treaty ) is I believe not only overstepping but a real cause for concern.
 
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