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Thread: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CAPPI

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Neat photo. That's the solar station that commercial pilots complain about for blinding them if they get within 200 miles of it. It is also frying thousands of birds that get near it, including many endangered species.

    Solar will ill never be competitive until an economiCal storage method is developed.
    Your concern about the birds is noted. If that's our biggest worry, we need to eradicate cats. Solar kills perhaps 28,000 birds per year. Cats kill at least 1,400,000,000 per year and perhaps as many as 3,700,000,000 per year. The neighbors cat hunts birds visiting my feeders every day. Poor cardinals and chickadees....

    And solar is already "competitive" but it's not a substitute for gas or coal. Do you think it will take "centuries" to figure out the storage?

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Your concern about the birds is noted. If that's our biggest worry, we need to eradicate cats. Solar kills perhaps 28,000 birds per year. Cats kill at least 1,400,000,000 per year and perhaps as many as 3,700,000,000 per year. The neighbors cat hunts birds visiting my feeders every day. Poor cardinals and chickadees....

    And solar is already "competitive" but it's not a substitute for gas or coal. Do you think it will take "centuries" to figure out the storage?
    Your lack of concern for the death of thousands of birds is noted. If you are suggesting that all feral cats be rounded up and killed, I am with you. If you are for serious fines for cat owners that allow their cats outside, I am also 100% with you. I seriously doubt you care about birds unless it affects one of your pet liberal projects.

    This solar project has killed thousands of birds, including golden eagles and a host of endangered species. Their feathers are literally burned off their wings.

    If you find any videos of a house cat killing a golden eagle, please link it since I'm sure it would be a hoot to watch.

    I'm sure the storage issue will be solved one day. I am all for solar, but I am very much against libs like Obama that cripple our electrical production capabilities before a storage solution is found.

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Your lack of concern for the death of thousands of birds is noted. If you are suggesting that all feral cats be rounded up and killed, I am with you. If you are for serious fines for cat owners that allow their cats outside, I am also 100% with you. I seriously doubt you care about birds unless it affects one of your pet liberal projects.

    This solar project has killed thousands of birds, including golden eagles and a host of endangered species. Their feathers are literally burned off their wings.
    I'm don't know how you'd define "care about birds" but I feed them, have made maybe 50 bluebird houses, photograph them, and occasionally go on bird watching outings when traveling. And I think it's OK to do that and maintain a bit of perspective on the various causes of bird losses: solar-28 versus cats-3,700,000. Furthermore, the endangered bird species got there because of loss of habitat and a host of other human activities totally unrelated to solar panels. And if we eliminate solar, we eliminate the energy source that kills the fewest birds.

    So if we are really worried about golden eagles, I'm sure on a list ranking the payoff of various activities for protecting the species from harm that solar is way down the list of acts we should take and human activities with the most harmful effects. It doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the bird losses and figure out how to minimize them around these giant installations, but I don't think anyone will be blaming solar when the next bird species becomes extinct. The culprit will be air and water pollution, habitat loss which increases predation at shrinking nesting sites, climate change, etc.

    If you find any videos of a house cat killing a golden eagle, please link it since I'm sure it would be a hoot to watch.
    We have a growing population of golden and bald eagles in my part of the world. Pretty exciting really.

    I'm sure the storage issue will be solved one day. I am all for solar, but I am very much against libs like Obama that cripple our electrical production capabilities before a storage solution is found.
    What did "lib" Obama do to "cripple" our electrical production capabilities? Energy costs have been flat for years, growing slower than inflation, which would seem to indicate no shocks to our production capabilities.....

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm don't know how you'd define "care about birds" but I feed them, have made maybe 50 bluebird houses, photograph them, and occasionally go on bird watching outings when traveling. And I think it's OK to do that and maintain a bit of perspective on the various causes of bird losses: solar-28 versus cats-3,700,000.
    The deaths by solar are for one plant in one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate.

    Furthermore, the endangered bird species got there because of loss of habitat and a host of other human activities totally unrelated to solar panels. And if we eliminate solar, we eliminate the energy source that kills the fewest birds.
    Not always. Provide a reference to your claim that other forms of energy kill more than solar.

    So if we are really worried about golden eagles, I'm sure on a list ranking the payoff of various activities for protecting the species from harm that solar is way down the list of acts we should take and human activities with the most harmful effects. It doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the bird losses and figure out how to minimize them around these giant installations, but I don't think anyone will be blaming solar when the next bird species becomes extinct. The culprit will be air and water pollution, habitat loss which increases predation at shrinking nesting sites, climate change, etc.
    So we just ignore an major source of bird death because it's politically correct these days??

    We have a growing population of golden and bald eagles in my part of the world. Pretty exciting really.
    So it's ok to kill a few hundred ??

    What did "lib" Obama do to "cripple" our electrical production capabilities? Energy costs have been flat for years, growing slower than inflation, which would seem to indicate no shocks to our production capabilities.....
    Regulations for new coal plants would increase electricity prices by as much as 80 percent, an Obama administration official told lawmakers on Tuesday.

    Julio Friedmann, deputy assistant secretary for clean coal at the DEPArtment of Energy, told members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight board that carbon capture and storage technology was still not ready for prime time.

    “The precise number will vary, but for first generation we project $70 to $90 per ton [on the wholesale price of electricity],” Friedmann said. “For second generation, it will be more like a $40 to $50 per ton price. Second generation of demonstrations will begin in a few years, but won’t be until middle of the next decade that we will have lessons learned and cost savings.”
    Energy official: Electricity prices to soar 80 percent, thanks to EPA coal regulations | WashingtonExaminer.com

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    The deaths by solar are for 1) one plant in 2) one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate.
    1) Wrong.
    2) Wrong.

    Here's a discussion and link to the study. Ivanpah thermal solar power plant produces “death rays” torching many birds | The Wildlife News

    It examined three plants and only 233 dead birds. The rest is an....estimate, same as for the cats. Some of the dead birds were killed by....vehicles. Others by other predators. Goodness, that's just like bird deaths in every place cars exist and wherever birds are killed by predators, which is everywhere....

    And I'm not sure what your point is about the cat estimate. Bump it down by a factor of 10 and the point stands.

    Not always. Provide a reference to your claim that other forms of energy kill more than solar.
    OK

    BirdDeaths.jpg

    So we just ignore an major source of bird death because it's politically correct these days??
    Actually, I said we shouldn't ignore it, but nice try.

    So it's ok to kill a few hundred ??
    Where is the evidence of a 'few hundred' eagles are killed by solar plants? At any rate, of course it's not "OK."

    And I am sure you're on board banning lead shot I suppose? It's been a consistently documented killer of eagles and other birds of prey and NRDC estimates lead poisoning kills 10-20 million animals per year. Bald Eagles Are Dying of Lead Poisoning, and Hunters Are to Blame | TakePart

    I see, right wing rag reports that if a bunch of things happen in the future that haven't happened yet, some forms of energy will increase in price by some undetermined amount, but estimates for coal range as high as 80% under some assumptions and proposed regulations. I see....

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    1) Wrong.
    2) Wrong.
    1. Right
    2. Right

    Of 34 birds reported dead or injured at Ivanpah in September, 15 had melted feathers. Dozens of other bird carcasses, not singed but with critical injuries, have been found in recent months at two solar projects about to go online on public land between Joshua Tree National Park and Blythe, Calif., a town of 20,800 on Interstate 10 near the Arizona border.

    Last month, 19 birds, 16 of them water fowl or marsh birds, were found dead at Desert Sunlight, a 550-megawatt photovoltaic plant about 50 miles east of Indio, Calif. The carcass of a Yuma clapper rail, a federally endangered, medium-sized marsh bird, was found at the project in May.
    Where is the evidence of a 'few hundred' eagles are killed by solar plants? At any rate, of course it's not "OK."
    These are dead eagles from wind projects, but many have been reported at solar projects also.

    Wind energy proponents are hoping people will look more broadly at the issue and more closely at the reported numbers of a recent U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service study that found wind-energy farms directly caused the deaths of hundreds of eagles since the late 1990s.

    The study, published Tuesday, reports that from 1997 until 2012 at least 85 golden eagles and bald eagles were killed by 32 wind-energy installations across 10 states.
    Wind Industry Responds To Troubling Report On Eagle Deaths

    And I am sure you're on board banning lead shot I suppose? It's been a consistently documented killer of eagles and other birds of prey and NRDC estimates lead poisoning kills 10-20 million animals per year. Bald Eagles Are Dying of Lead Poisoning, and Hunters Are to Blame | TakePart
    Lead shot is already banned in wildlife management areas. I mostly duck hunt now and lead shot is banned while duck hunting. I did my senior thesis on waterfowl lead poisoning in 1971, so I've been aware of the problem for many years, probably before you were born.

    I see, right wing rag reports that if a bunch of things happen in the future that haven't happened yet, some forms of energy will increase in price by some undetermined amount, but estimates for coal range as high as 80% under some assumptions and proposed regulations. I see....
    Bwaa haaaa... you complain about a quote from a major newspaper and then have the balls to quote "Think Progress"?? That's too funny.

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    1. Right
    2. Right
    I linked to the study - it was three plants, and they extrapolated 233 dead birds from those three plants to 28,000 total annually. What's weird is you then cite a few dozen deaths from those three plants as proof somehow the 28,000 was a hard count from one month at ONE plant.... bizarre. Go read the study! You were wrong....

    These are dead eagles from wind projects, but many have been reported at solar projects also.
    I thought we were talking about solar. Now we're talking about wind? OK, and it's not "OK" that wind turbines are lethal to some number of large raptors. I'm not sure what the answer is.

    Lead shot is already banned in wildlife management areas. I mostly duck hunt now and lead shot is banned while duck hunting. I did my senior thesis on waterfowl lead poisoning in 1971, so I've been aware of the problem for many years, probably before you were born.
    Right, I'm also a duck hunter and was born in 1963. Don't know when you became aware of the problem.

    But you didn't answer the question. All those dove and deer hunters and target shooters are killing wildlife with their lead shot. So ban it to save the eagles?

    Bwaa haaaa... you complain about a quote from a major newspaper and then have the balls to quote "Think Progress"?? That's too funny.
    Your article was about potential price increases in the future if certain regulations come online and aren't subsidized by government, which they would be, etc. You said Obama "crippled" (past tense) the electrical generation industry. I guess you meant, "might cause the price of coal generated energy to increase in the future if certain regulations come on line, if coal isn't replaced by natural gas selling for record low prices, etc."

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I linked to the study - it was three plants, and they extrapolated 233 dead birds from those three plants to 28,000 total annually. What's weird is you then cite a few dozen deaths from those three plants as proof somehow the 28,000 was a hard count from one month at ONE plant.... bizarre. Go read the study! You were wrong....
    I never mentioned only three plants and never commented on "28,000" bird deaths. You've gone off the deep end.

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    I never mentioned only three plants and never commented on "28,000" bird deaths. You've gone off the deep end.
    OK, several times I mentioned 28,000 bird deaths and cited the study. In response you said this, "The deaths by solar are for one plant in one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate."

    I thought you meant that the 28,000 figure I'd mentioned was a hard number, unlike the cat estimate. But I guess you meant some unknown number of bird deaths (lots!) at that one plant in some unknown month? Why didn't you say so - I see your point now....

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    Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    when the market was flooded to the point oil being half the price of what it was earlier this year.
    The correct answer is that it didn't cease being a global commodity...The fact that the Saud's are flooding the market by refusing to slow down supply, while people are using less refined product like Gasoline driving the price down is welcome relief for millions of middle class and poor families....Plus it looks to have chopped the proposed profits of the oil companies nearly in half, which I don't necessarily think it a good thing, but you anti corporate types ought to love that....I don't get it? How can you say you're for the middle class and the poor, and want to see higher prices?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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