Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CAPPI

JasperL · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gill said:
Neat photo. That's the solar station that commercial pilots complain about for blinding them if they get within 200 miles of it. It is also frying thousands of birds that get near it, including many endangered species.

Solar will ill never be competitive until an economiCal storage method is developed.

Your concern about the birds is noted. :roll: If that's our biggest worry, we need to eradicate cats. Solar kills perhaps 28,000 birds per year. Cats kill at least 1,400,000,000 per year and perhaps as many as 3,700,000,000 per year. The neighbors cat hunts birds visiting my feeders every day. Poor cardinals and chickadees....

And solar is already "competitive" but it's not a substitute for gas or coal. Do you think it will take "centuries" to figure out the storage?

Gill · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

JasperL said:
Your concern about the birds is noted. :roll: If that's our biggest worry, we need to eradicate cats. Solar kills perhaps 28,000 birds per year. Cats kill at least 1,400,000,000 per year and perhaps as many as 3,700,000,000 per year. The neighbors cat hunts birds visiting my feeders every day. Poor cardinals and chickadees....

And solar is already "competitive" but it's not a substitute for gas or coal. Do you think it will take "centuries" to figure out the storage?

Your lack of concern for the death of thousands of birds is noted. If you are suggesting that all feral cats be rounded up and killed, I am with you. If you are for serious fines for cat owners that allow their cats outside, I am also 100% with you. I seriously doubt you care about birds unless it affects one of your pet liberal projects.

This solar project has killed thousands of birds, including golden eagles and a host of endangered species. Their feathers are literally burned off their wings.

If you find any videos of a house cat killing a golden eagle, please link it since I'm sure it would be a hoot to watch.

I'm sure the storage issue will be solved one day. I am all for solar, but I am very much against libs like Obama that cripple our electrical production capabilities before a storage solution is found.

JasperL · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gill said:
Your lack of concern for the death of thousands of birds is noted. If you are suggesting that all feral cats be rounded up and killed, I am with you. If you are for serious fines for cat owners that allow their cats outside, I am also 100% with you. I seriously doubt you care about birds unless it affects one of your pet liberal projects.

This solar project has killed thousands of birds, including golden eagles and a host of endangered species. Their feathers are literally burned off their wings.

I'm don't know how you'd define "care about birds" but I feed them, have made maybe 50 bluebird houses, photograph them, and occasionally go on bird watching outings when traveling. And I think it's OK to do that and maintain a bit of perspective on the various causes of bird losses: solar-28 versus cats-3,700,000. Furthermore, the endangered bird species got there because of loss of habitat and a host of other human activities totally unrelated to solar panels. And if we eliminate solar, we eliminate the energy source that kills the fewest birds.

So if we are really worried about golden eagles, I'm sure on a list ranking the payoff of various activities for protecting the species from harm that solar is way down the list of acts we should take and human activities with the most harmful effects. It doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the bird losses and figure out how to minimize them around these giant installations, but I don't think anyone will be blaming solar when the next bird species becomes extinct. The culprit will be air and water pollution, habitat loss which increases predation at shrinking nesting sites, climate change, etc.

If you find any videos of a house cat killing a golden eagle, please link it since I'm sure it would be a hoot to watch.

We have a growing population of golden and bald eagles in my part of the world. Pretty exciting really.

I'm sure the storage issue will be solved one day. I am all for solar, but I am very much against libs like Obama that cripple our electrical production capabilities before a storage solution is found.

What did "lib" Obama do to "cripple" our electrical production capabilities? Energy costs have been flat for years, growing slower than inflation, which would seem to indicate no shocks to our production capabilities..... :doh

Gill · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

JasperL said:
I'm don't know how you'd define "care about birds" but I feed them, have made maybe 50 bluebird houses, photograph them, and occasionally go on bird watching outings when traveling. And I think it's OK to do that and maintain a bit of perspective on the various causes of bird losses: solar-28 versus cats-3,700,000.

The deaths by solar are for one plant in one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate.

Furthermore, the endangered bird species got there because of loss of habitat and a host of other human activities totally unrelated to solar panels. And if we eliminate solar, we eliminate the energy source that kills the fewest birds.

Not always. Provide a reference to your claim that other forms of energy kill more than solar.

So if we are really worried about golden eagles, I'm sure on a list ranking the payoff of various activities for protecting the species from harm that solar is way down the list of acts we should take and human activities with the most harmful effects. It doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the bird losses and figure out how to minimize them around these giant installations, but I don't think anyone will be blaming solar when the next bird species becomes extinct. The culprit will be air and water pollution, habitat loss which increases predation at shrinking nesting sites, climate change, etc.

So we just ignore an major source of bird death because it's politically correct these days??

We have a growing population of golden and bald eagles in my part of the world. Pretty exciting really.

So it's ok to kill a few hundred ??

What did "lib" Obama do to "cripple" our electrical production capabilities? Energy costs have been flat for years, growing slower than inflation, which would seem to indicate no shocks to our production capabilities..... :doh

Regulations for new coal plants would increase electricity prices by as much as 80 percent, an Obama administration official told lawmakers on Tuesday.

Julio Friedmann, deputy assistant secretary for clean coal at the DEPArtment of Energy, told members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight board that carbon capture and storage technology was still not ready for prime time.

“The precise number will vary, but for first generation we project $70 to $90 per ton [on the wholesale price of electricity],” Friedmann said. “For second generation, it will be more like a $40 to $50 per ton price. Second generation of demonstrations will begin in a few years, but won’t be until middle of the next decade that we will have lessons learned and cost savings.”

Energy official: Electricity prices to soar 80 percent, thanks to EPA coal regulations | WashingtonExaminer.com

JasperL · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gill said:
The deaths by solar are for 1) one plant in 2) one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate.

1) Wrong.
2) Wrong.

Here's a discussion and link to the study. Ivanpah thermal solar power plant produces “death rays” torching many birds | The Wildlife News

It examined three plants and only 233 dead birds. The rest is an....estimate, same as for the cats. Some of the dead birds were killed by....vehicles. Others by other predators. Goodness, that's just like bird deaths in every place cars exist and wherever birds are killed by predators, which is everywhere....

And I'm not sure what your point is about the cat estimate. Bump it down by a factor of 10 and the point stands.

Not always. Provide a reference to your claim that other forms of energy kill more than solar.

OK

So we just ignore an major source of bird death because it's politically correct these days??

Actually, I said we shouldn't ignore it, but nice try.

So it's ok to kill a few hundred ??

Where is the evidence of a 'few hundred' eagles are killed by solar plants? At any rate, of course it's not "OK."

And I am sure you're on board banning lead shot I suppose? It's been a consistently documented killer of eagles and other birds of prey and NRDC estimates lead poisoning kills 10-20 million animals per year. Bald Eagles Are Dying of Lead Poisoning, and Hunters Are to Blame | TakePart

Energy official: Electricity prices to soar 80 percent, thanks to EPA coal regulations | WashingtonExaminer.com

I see, right wing rag reports that if a bunch of things happen in the future that haven't happened yet, some forms of energy will increase in price by some undetermined amount, but estimates for coal range as high as 80% under some assumptions and proposed regulations. I see....

Gill · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

JasperL said:
1) Wrong.
2) Wrong.

1. Right
2. Right

Of 34 birds reported dead or injured at Ivanpah in September, 15 had melted feathers. Dozens of other bird carcasses, not singed but with critical injuries, have been found in recent months at two solar projects about to go online on public land between Joshua Tree National Park and Blythe, Calif., a town of 20,800 on Interstate 10 near the Arizona border.

Last month, 19 birds, 16 of them water fowl or marsh birds, were found dead at Desert Sunlight, a 550-megawatt photovoltaic plant about 50 miles east of Indio, Calif. The carcass of a Yuma clapper rail, a federally endangered, medium-sized marsh bird, was found at the project in May.

Where is the evidence of a 'few hundred' eagles are killed by solar plants? At any rate, of course it's not "OK."

These are dead eagles from wind projects, but many have been reported at solar projects also.

Wind energy proponents are hoping people will look more broadly at the issue and more closely at the reported numbers of a recent U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service study that found wind-energy farms directly caused the deaths of hundreds of eagles since the late 1990s.

The study, published Tuesday, reports that from 1997 until 2012 at least 85 golden eagles and bald eagles were killed by 32 wind-energy installations across 10 states.

Wind Industry Responds To Troubling Report On Eagle Deaths

And I am sure you're on board banning lead shot I suppose? It's been a consistently documented killer of eagles and other birds of prey and NRDC estimates lead poisoning kills 10-20 million animals per year. Bald Eagles Are Dying of Lead Poisoning, and Hunters Are to Blame | TakePart

Lead shot is already banned in wildlife management areas. I mostly duck hunt now and lead shot is banned while duck hunting. I did my senior thesis on waterfowl lead poisoning in 1971, so I've been aware of the problem for many years, probably before you were born.

I see, right wing rag reports that if a bunch of things happen in the future that haven't happened yet, some forms of energy will increase in price by some undetermined amount, but estimates for coal range as high as 80% under some assumptions and proposed regulations. I see....

Bwaa haaaa... you complain about a quote from a major newspaper and then have the balls to quote "Think Progress"?? That's too funny.

JasperL · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gill said:
1. Right
2. Right

I linked to the study - it was three plants, and they extrapolated 233 dead birds from those three plants to 28,000 total annually. What's weird is you then cite a few dozen deaths from those three plants as proof somehow the 28,000 was a hard count from one month at ONE plant.... bizarre. Go read the study! You were wrong....

These are dead eagles from wind projects, but many have been reported at solar projects also.

I thought we were talking about solar. Now we're talking about wind? OK, and it's not "OK" that wind turbines are lethal to some number of large raptors. I'm not sure what the answer is.

Lead shot is already banned in wildlife management areas. I mostly duck hunt now and lead shot is banned while duck hunting. I did my senior thesis on waterfowl lead poisoning in 1971, so I've been aware of the problem for many years, probably before you were born.

Right, I'm also a duck hunter and was born in 1963. Don't know when you became aware of the problem.

But you didn't answer the question. All those dove and deer hunters and target shooters are killing wildlife with their lead shot. So ban it to save the eagles?

Bwaa haaaa... you complain about a quote from a major newspaper and then have the balls to quote "Think Progress"?? That's too funny.

Your article was about potential price increases in the future if certain regulations come online and aren't subsidized by government, which they would be, etc. You said Obama "crippled" (past tense) the electrical generation industry. I guess you meant, "might cause the price of coal generated energy to increase in the future if certain regulations come on line, if coal isn't replaced by natural gas selling for record low prices, etc."

Gill · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

JasperL said:
I linked to the study - it was three plants, and they extrapolated 233 dead birds from those three plants to 28,000 total annually. What's weird is you then cite a few dozen deaths from those three plants as proof somehow the 28,000 was a hard count from one month at ONE plant.... bizarre. Go read the study! You were wrong....

I never mentioned only three plants and never commented on "28,000" bird deaths. You've gone off the deep end.

JasperL · Feb 3, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

Gill said:
I never mentioned only three plants and never commented on "28,000" bird deaths. You've gone off the deep end.

OK, several times I mentioned 28,000 bird deaths and cited the study. In response you said this, "The deaths by solar are for one plant in one month. The estimate for cats is exactly that, an estimate."

I thought you meant that the 28,000 figure I'd mentioned was a hard number, unlike the cat estimate. But I guess you meant some unknown number of bird deaths (lots!) at that one plant in some unknown month? Why didn't you say so - I see your point now.... :lamo

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

iacardsfan said:
when the market was flooded to the point oil being half the price of what it was earlier this year.

The correct answer is that it didn't cease being a global commodity...The fact that the Saud's are flooding the market by refusing to slow down supply, while people are using less refined product like Gasoline driving the price down is welcome relief for millions of middle class and poor families....Plus it looks to have chopped the proposed profits of the oil companies nearly in half, which I don't necessarily think it a good thing, but you anti corporate types ought to love that....I don't get it? How can you say you're for the middle class and the poor, and want to see higher prices?

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
Not blackmail when they already have a way around that land.

If you look at the TransCanada keystone maps they already have a route mapped out( in red ) that avoids the Indian Nation.( the proposed blue dotted line goes through the Indian Nation property.)

They should use the route in red and be at peace with the Indian Nation.

View Keystone XL Pipeline Maps | Keystone XL Pipeline

I agree Minnie, and if you read the stories about this dispute, you'll see that TC is indeed trying to work with the tribes to settle their concerns, and in most cases, give one or two hold outs they have done exactly that...What you have in effect is one tribe not accepting any proposal including your "red" line because they say that 'just because their are no burials there doesn't mean that they don't consider the land sacred'....It's a statement that screams contrarian obstruction.

I am all for private companies making a profit. Using eminent domain to go through privately owned land ( especially land deeded to the American Indians in a peace treaty ) is I believe not only overstepping but a real cause for concern.

Just because these companies are private concerns, doesn't mean that they aren't acting in the interests of the nations they come from, ie; the US, and Canada...We don't have a 'National Oil Company', so when you say that these companies are doing this, you are just plain wrong, or deceptive, or both....The government are the ones using eminent domain to grant the easements to the land...If you have problems with that your beef is with the representatives, not the oil companies.

notquiteright · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
The correct answer is that it didn't cease being a global commodity...The fact that the Saud's are flooding the market by refusing to slow down supply, while people are using less refined product like Gasoline driving the price down is welcome relief for millions of middle class and poor families....Plus it looks to have chopped the proposed profits of the oil companies nearly in half, which I don't necessarily think it a good thing, but you anti corporate types ought to love that....I don't get it? How can you say you're for the middle class and the poor, and want to see higher prices?

Actually the good ol' USofA is the oil rich nation 'flooding' the market with fossil fuels. What the Saudi's are doing is not cutting back on their production to allow the USofA's massive increase to continue along with higher oil prices...

I see this as more a move to drive a stake in Putin's economic heart by crippling the Russian export market.... oil and NG are the key exports Russia has and can use as leverage against Europe. Russia pays for it's military surge and adventures with oil dollars (they can't borrow billions like we can to kite military adventures)- they use surplus money to keep the domestic critics at bay.

But we all stand with a slightly different O-T angle...

eace

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

notquiteright said:
Actually the good ol' USofA is the oil rich nation 'flooding' the market with fossil fuels. What the Saudi's are doing is not cutting back on their production to allow the USofA's massive increase to continue along with higher oil prices...

I see this as more a move to drive a stake in Putin's economic heart by crippling the Russian export market.... oil and NG are the key exports Russia has and can use as leverage against Europe. Russia pays for it's military surge and adventures with oil dollars (they can't borrow billions like we can to kite military adventures)- they use surplus money to keep the domestic critics at bay.

But we all stand with a slightly different O-T angle... eace

Mornin NQR...I've heard that angle, as well as one that suggests that they are also doing this to undermine our own production increases due to fracking....In any case...I sure love the savings...I know between my wife and I it adds up to about $120. per month...Not chump change in an average joe's like my budget....

minnie616 · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
The correct answer is that it didn't cease being a global commodity...The fact that the Saud's are flooding the market by refusing to slow down supply, while people are using less refined product like Gasoline driving the price down is welcome relief for millions of middle class and poor families....Plus it looks to have chopped the proposed profits of the oil companies nearly in half, which I don't necessarily think it a good thing, but you anti corporate types ought to love that....I don't get it? How can you say you're for the middle class and the poor, and want to see higher prices?

I don't want to see higher prices for gasoline even though some of investments might take a bit of a hit.
I am glad the prices are lower and that middle class and poor are seeing a little relief in the lower gas prices.

According to news the average driver should see a savings in lower gas prices between $550 to $750 this year.

My objection to this particular pipeline is the Eminent Domain issue.

minnie616 · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
I agree Minnie, and if you read the stories about this dispute, you'll see that TC is indeed trying to work with the tribes to settle their concerns, and in most cases, give one or two hold outs they have done exactly that...What you have in effect is one tribe not accepting any proposal including your "red" line because they say that 'just because their are no burials there doesn't mean that they don't consider the land sacred'....It's a statement that screams contrarian obstruction.
....

The red line does not go through South Dakota and does cross Sioux Indian owned land.

See the map of the Sioux Indian owned land in this link.

http://www.walkinbeauty-bethechange.com/gsntreatylands.html

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
The red line does not go through South Dakota and does cross Sioux Indian owned land.

See the map of the Sioux Indian owned land in this link.

Great Sioux Nation Treaty Lands

I can see by that map why TC want's to stick as close to the original route...Shortest distance between two points is a straight line, as opposed to the wild route highlighted in red....But, surely there is a compromise, like I said before, it seems that there is only one tribal hold out out of the many involved.

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
I don't want to see higher prices for gasoline even though some of investments might take a bit of a hit.
I am glad the prices are lower and that middle class and poor are seeing a little relief in the lower gas prices.

According to news the average driver should see a savings in lower gas prices between $550 to $750 this year.

My objection to this particular pipeline is the Eminent Domain issue.

If the price were to stabilize at today's pump price, I calculate about $1400 give or take....That to us means we have enough to go to my nephews wedding in Maryland...Without it, we'd probably have to send a gift, and our apologies for not attending....That's what it means in real terms to real people...All too often we get caught up in saying stuff like 'aw, it's only a dollar or two'.... But, I gotta tell ya, with all the prices out there, and both me and the wife working our butts off just to have pennies left at the end of the month, I take very seriously when this administration doesn't take things that are passed along to us into account.

minnie616 · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
I can see by that map why TC want's to stick as close to the original route...Shortest distance between two points is a straight line, as opposed to the wild route highlighted in red....But, surely there is a compromise, like I said before, it seems that there is only one tribal hold out out of the many involved.

According to following article it is not just one tribe but several who are against the pipeline going through their land.

The Rosebud Sioux Tribe, along with several other South Dakota Tribes, are unified in opposition to risky and dangerous fossil fuel projects like TransCanada’s Keystone XL. The proposed route of TransCanada’s Keystone XL pipeline crosses directly through Great Sioux Nation (Oceti Sakowin) Treaty lands as defined by both the 1851 and 1868 Fort Laramie Treaties and within the current exterior boundaries of the Rosebud Sioux Reservation and Cheyenne River Sioux Reservation.

Read more:

Environment: South Dakota Native Americans describe House vote on Keystone XL pipeline as an ‘act of war’ | Summit County Citizens Voice

j-mac · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
According to following article it is not just one tribe but several who are against the pipeline going through their land.

Read more:

Environment: South Dakota Native Americans describe House vote on Keystone XL pipeline as an ‘act of war’ | Summit County Citizens Voice

Well, In reading this story from the guardian; South Dakota Sioux tribe calls Keystone XL pipeline approval 'act of war' | Environment | The Guardian some Environmental nuts have really clouded these tribes thinking on the pipeline...This is the most studied pipeline in history, and probably the safest one too....You have more chance spilling oil today adding it to your engine than you do from this pipeline.

minnie616 · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
Well, In reading this story from the guardian; South Dakota Sioux tribe calls Keystone XL pipeline approval 'act of war' | Environment | The Guardian some Environmental nuts have really clouded these tribes thinking on the pipeline...This is the most studied pipeline in history, and probably the safest one too....You have more chance spilling oil today adding it to your engine than you do from this pipeline.

Actually as a long time Michigan resident I do not trust pipelines as much as you do.
I remember the 2010 Enbridge tar sand oil spill quite vividly.

Response History

Enbridge Energy Partners LLP (Enbridge) reported a 30-inch pipeline ruptured on Monday, July 26, 2010, near Marshall, Michigan. The release, estimated at 843,000 gallons, entered Talmadge Creek and flowed into the Kalamazoo River, a Lake Michigan tributary. Heavy rains caused the river to overtop existing dams and carried oil 35 miles downstream on the Kalamazoo River.

Read more:

http://www.epa.gov/enbridgespill/

Navy Pride · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
Well, In reading this story from the guardian; South Dakota Sioux tribe calls Keystone XL pipeline approval 'act of war' | Environment | The Guardian some Environmental nuts have really clouded these tribes thinking on the pipeline...This is the most studied pipeline in history, and probably the safest one too....You have more chance spilling oil today adding it to your engine than you do from this pipeline.

The environmentalists are in this up to their ass and those are votes the left depends on.

minnie616 · Feb 4, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
Actually as a long time Michigan resident I do not trust pipelines as much as you do.
I remember the 2010 Enbridge tar sand oil spill quite vividly.

Read more:

EPA Response to Enbridge Spill in Michigan | US EPA

For those who are interested in timeline of the Michigan tar sands oil spill and how the company did not even inform the EPA that this not an ordinary oil spill but that the spill was from tar sands oil the following gives a lot of interesting details.

The Dilbit Disaster: Inside The Biggest Oil Spill You've Never Heard Of, Part 1

A black goo stopped just 10 feet from the metal cap that marked his drinking water well. Walking on the tarry mess was like stepping on chewing gum.

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/2...r-marshall-michigan-oil-spill-6b-pipeline-epa

j-mac · Feb 5, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

minnie616 said:
Actually as a long time Michigan resident I do not trust pipelines as much as you do.
I remember the 2010 Enbridge tar sand oil spill quite vividly.

Read more:

http://www.epa.gov/enbridgespill/

Yep, grew up in Lansing. So you trust truck, and rail more?

minnie616 · Feb 5, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
Yep, grew up in Lansing. So you trust truck, and rail more?

I did not grow up in Lansing.

minnie616 · Feb 5, 2015

Re: Senate passes bill approving Keystone XL oil pipeline Associated Press By DINA CA

j-mac said:
?..So you trust truck, and rail more?

Pick Your Poison For Crude -- Pipeline, Rail, Truck Or Boat

The short answer is: truck worse than train worse than pipeline worse than boat (Oilprice.com). But that’s only for human death and property destruction.

For the normalized amount of oil spilled, it’s truck worse than pipeline worse than rail worse than boat (Congressional Research Service).

Different yet again is for environmental impact (dominated by impact to aquatic habitat), where it’s boat worse than pipeline worse than truck worse than rail.

So it depends upon what your definition is for worse. Is it death and destruction? Is it amount of oil released? Is it land area or water volume contaminated? Is it habitat destroyed? Is it CO2 emitted?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...poison-for-crude-pipeline-rail-truck-or-boat/