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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You're right. It's not worth the effort. In 2012 the Kochs spent many millions. The result? Another 4 years of Obama and democrat control of the senate. I don't blame you for not wanting to put up the "ROI" figures that the Kochs got for their contributions. There isn't any "return on investment" because the donations aren't an "investment". They're "donations". Maybe you're hanging your hat on an inability to distinguish the difference.
    They did, but the money was funded into non-profit groups for influencing the 2014 mid-terms for Congressional seats to win back the House. And we know how that turned out. They donated only $4.9M to presidential PACs.

    The players in the Koch-backed $400 million political donor network
    The players in the Koch-backed $400 million political donor network - The Washington Post
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVanilla View Post
    They did, but the money was funded into non-profit groups for influencing the 2014 mid-terms for Congressional seats to win back the House. And we know how that turned out. They donated only $4.9M to presidential PACs.

    The players in the Koch-backed $400 million political donor network
    The players in the Koch-backed $400 million political donor network - The Washington Post
    Seems like the only ones truly swayed by money and advertising are liberals. Liberal groups like Soros couldn't spend enough to get me to vote for a Democrat today, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Hillary so apparently that money wouldn't be well spent on my. Take that money to the liberal base and Gruber nailed it

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Did you ever learn about equal opportunity vs equal outcome? You think this country was built on equal outcome? Do you honestly not understand incentives?
    I understand incentives.

    Incentives come in a variety of forms. They also don't have to be winner takes all form to be effective.

    My incentive is to increase equality because I like being equal, and I like those around me to be more equal.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    That just means laws should treat people as if they are equal. As in there should not be a law which says you have more free speech because you are rich. But in the absence of the law, everyone IS equal to pursue happiness, which means no limits on the capital they accumulate.
    You do have more speech if you're rich. The article describes how a few people will be spending a billion dollars next year speaking. I, nor most people, don't have that much speech.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You're right. It's not worth the effort. In 2012 the Kochs spent many millions. The result? Another 4 years of Obama and democrat control of the senate. I don't blame you for not wanting to put up the "ROI" figures that the Kochs got for their contributions. There isn't any "return on investment" because the donations aren't an "investment". They're "donations". Maybe you're hanging your hat on an inability to distinguish the difference.
    Interesting - I mention the great success they had at the state level, you ignore that, and concentrate on the POTUS and Senate in one election cycle, ignoring 2010 when the House flipped, 2014 when the Senate flipped, and the many cases of state legislatures flipping or getting to super majority..... It's how this discussion is going.

    And the strawman you've created by picking 2012 is that the spending has to always get the intended result. The problem with big donors having an outsized influence is races become games between dueling billionaires. Koch versus Soros, or AFP versus the Hospital Association. Or maybe it's Boeing versus GE, with both entities spending vast sums to 1) maintain a $trillion defense budget, and 2) fighting for their share of that pot.

    If you're a rational person, and are thinking of a run for Senate, are you going to solicit 100,000 donations of $50, or go with your hat in hand to one of the king makers who can individually or as a tiny group drop $5 million into a race? Obviously the one who has the backing of millions from one source will have a large advantage, will tend to win more often than not, and that candidate will support the agenda of his or her donor base. I don't see it as a win for a functioning democracy if sometimes that's Charles Koch, and sometimes that's Wall Street or PhRMA.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I understand incentives.

    Incentives come in a variety of forms. They also don't have to be winner takes all form to be effective.

    My incentive is to increase equality because I like being equal, and I like those around me to be more equal.
    Winner take all? So tell me how a rich person prevented you from becoming rich? Apparently you think the pie is frozen in size, is that correct? You are limited by your own ability and effort from getting into the same class as those evil rich people you want to punish. Only you are stopping yourself

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Seems like the only ones truly swayed by money and advertising are liberals. Liberal groups like Soros couldn't spend enough to get me to vote for a Democrat today, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Hillary so apparently that money wouldn't be well spent on my. Take that money to the liberal base and Gruber nailed it
    Excuse me? What part of the Koch's $400M to win back the House did you miss? Go to the link and look at the network.

    And poor Jonathan Gruber seems to have more crow feathers to pick out his mouth than he can manage.
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
    ― Upton Sinclair

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Interesting - I mention the great success they had at the state level, you ignore that, and concentrate on the POTUS and Senate in one election cycle, ignoring 2010 when the House flipped, 2014 when the Senate flipped, and the many cases of state legislatures flipping or getting to super majority..... It's how this discussion is going.
    It's pertinent. If the money "BUYS" you a candidate, then the Kochs, outspending everyone, then every candidate backed by the Koch brothers should win and they don't. The fact that republicans make more gains in some years than others is only something you can attribute to "Koch brothers influence" if you ignore everything else that affects elections.

    And the strawman you've created by picking 2012 is that the spending has to always get the intended result.
    That's not a strawman. That just blows a gaping hole in your theory that campaign donations "buy" either politicians or votes. One man one vote is still the law of the land.

    The problem with big donors having an outsized influence is races become games between dueling billionaires. Koch versus Soros, or AFP versus the Hospital Association. Or maybe it's Boeing versus GE, with both entities spending vast sums to 1) maintain a $trillion defense budget, and 2) fighting for their share of that pot.
    One man; one vote. It's the law of the land.

    If you're a rational person, and are thinking of a run for Senate, are you going to solicit 100,000 donations of $50, or go with your hat in hand to one of the king makers who can individually or as a tiny group drop $5 million into a race? Obviously the one who has the backing of millions from one source will have a large advantage, will tend to win more often than not, and that candidate will support the agenda of his or her donor base. I don't see it as a win for a functioning democracy if sometimes that's Charles Koch, and sometimes that's Wall Street or PhRMA.
    I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to respond to this any more. There's lots of debate and lots of emotions and lots of "gut feelings" but zero evidence that campaign contributions buy votes or political candidates. Are you going to vote for the people that the Koch brothers are supporting? I doubt it. Why can't the Koch brothers buy your vote?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Winner take all? So tell me how a rich person prevented you from becoming rich? Apparently you think the pie is frozen in size, is that correct? You are limited by your own ability and effort from getting into the same class as those evil rich people you want to punish. Only you are stopping yourself
    That's easy. Ask that same question of people who were marketed heavily in the early '00s to buy a home only for it to go underwater or be foreclosed in 2008. Countrywide would give a mortgage to anyone with a pulse. Does the term NINJA loan conjure up any memories for you? Show me where the Wall Street bankers have been hurt in that deal. Hank Paulson (Secty of the Treasury under Bush, in case you forgot that, too) gave them $750,000,000,000 to ease their pain.
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
    ― Upton Sinclair

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Kochs are spending the money because it is a good financial investment. They spend millions to make billions. Government for sale to the highest bidder.
    Last edited by Amadeus; 02-04-15 at 02:54 PM.

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