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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Do you believe that the rich ought to pay of a percentage of their wealth to fund government programs intended to transfer wealth to government workers and "the poor"? If so you just might be a Marxist.
    Do you believe that some should rule over the many because the many must be led (the dictatorship of the protes)?
    If so you just might be a Marxist.

    Do you believe that the productive steal from the poor?
    If so you just might be a Marxist.

    Do you believe that capitalism must be weakened or even destroyed for equality's sake?
    If so you just might be a Marxist.

    Do you believe that the government must dominate and control everything for the sake of fairness?
    If so you just might be a neo-Marxist.
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Authoritarian government being bad doesn't mean that excessive wealth, and the excessive influence it buys, isn't bad as well.
    In a capitalist system, where people have a right to accumulate capital, whats excessive? There should be no such thing.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course I explained why that's misleading, but you ignored that point. It says that PAC donations don't affect the overall score by five ideological groups. It doesn't even examine whether, say, donations from an insurance PAC affect a key vote affecting the insurance industry.



    And if the money doesn't buy "influence" then what does it buy? The election of person who reliably votes according to your interests, apparently. I just see those as distinctions without a meaningful difference. Look what happened in Kansas - a few GOPers voted against the tax cuts. What happened? Koch and other interests poured tons of money into those races and unseated all those moderate GOPers. You're trying to tell me that spending doesn't buy influence. It's naive, and ludicrous. Of course it buys influence - it's a hammer over the head of anyone in Kansas who takes a position opposite AFP.



    Yeah, and you never know if your investment in equipment will pay off. So what?



    I already have challenged your interpretation of the paper.



    Of course, I don't support the billionaires on my side becoming king makers either. It's a recipe for plutocracy - dueling billionaires. I guess if you're right, might as well get used to that.
    You are being intentionally obtuse. Campaign donations don't actually "buy" anything outright for you. Maybe you could say they "buy" you a feeling of participation but to argue that they really must be buying political favors just because you know they must buy political favors is circular logic and I'm tired of pointing that out.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Authoritarian government being bad doesn't mean that excessive wealth, and the excessive influence it buys, isn't bad as well.
    What amount of wealth is excessive?

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    You are being intentionally obtuse. Campaign donations don't actually "buy" anything outright for you.
    LOL, it's not me being intentionally obtuse. If campaign donations don't "buy" anything, then why do special interests spend (in the case of Wall Street and healthcare) $billions in the system? Each spent more than $6 billion lobbying since 1998, and that's just part of the spending. They're not irrational, or stupid, and if that money doesn't accomplish anything, why bother? Shouldn't shareholders demand that GE do something more productive with its money than spend $315 million since 1998 on lobbying? After all that money doesn't "buy" anything...

    Maybe you could say they "buy" you a feeling of participation but to argue that they really must be buying political favors just because you know they must buy political favors is circular logic and I'm tired of pointing that out.
    It's not a "feeling of participation" they're obtaining, it's results. The companies and industries know it, you know it. And you ignore my comments, then address straw man like that above, so there's really no point to this debate. You're apparently determined to miss the point.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL, it's not me being intentionally obtuse. If campaign donations don't "buy" anything, then why do special interests spend (in the case of Wall Street and healthcare) $billions in the system? Each spent more than $6 billion lobbying since 1998, and that's just part of the spending. They're not irrational, or stupid, and if that money doesn't accomplish anything, why bother? Shouldn't shareholders demand that GE do something more productive with it's money than spend $315 million since 1998 on lobbying? After all that money doesn't "buy" anything.



    It's not a "feeling of participation" they're obtaining, it's results. The companies and industries know it, you know it. And you ignore my comments, then address straw man like that above, so there's really no point to this debate. You're apparently determined to miss the point.
    Arguing that campaign donations must buy favors because they wouldn't be made if they don't buy favors is circular logic.

    Why don't you tell me what the Kochs bought with all their donations in 2012? Be specific about the favors they purchased with the millions they spent.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    And they do this due to their love for their country. Thoughts are?

    Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/us...=top-news&_r=0

    The political network overseen by the conservative billionaires Charles G. and David H. Koch plans to spend close to $900 million on the 2016 campaign, an unparalelled effort by outside groups to shape a presidential election that is already on track to be the most expensive in history.

    The goal, revealed Monday at the Kochs’ annual winter donor retreat near Palm Springs, Calif., would effectively allow their political organization to operate at the same financial scale as the Democratic and Republican parties. In the last presidential election, the Republican National Committee and the party’s two congressional campaign committees spent a total of $657 million.

    It's no coincidence that Romney made his announcement just days after the Koch brothers revealed they are buying the White House in 2016. He doesn't have that kind of money. Several homes and an elevator for his car in La Jolla, yes. That kind of money, no.
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    LOL, it's not me being intentionally obtuse. If campaign donations don't "buy" anything, then why do special interests spend (in the case of Wall Street and healthcare) $billions in the system? Each spent more than $6 billion lobbying since 1998, and that's just part of the spending. They're not irrational, or stupid, and if that money doesn't accomplish anything, why bother? Shouldn't shareholders demand that GE do something more productive with its money than spend $315 million since 1998 on lobbying? After all that money doesn't "buy" anything...



    It's not a "feeling of participation" they're obtaining, it's results. The companies and industries know it, you know it. And you ignore my comments, then address straw man like that above, so there's really no point to this debate. You're apparently determined to miss the point.
    Why aren't you holding politicians accountable for accepting campaign contributions to buy influence? You don't seem to understand that it is freedom to spend your money the way you see fit on trial here. There is nothing illegal about spending your own money on a political campaign but this is another freedom you don't have a problem eliminating. There isn't a lobbyist out there that casts a vote on any laws made by Congress so your outrage is misguided.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by PureVanilla View Post
    It's no coincidence that Romney made his announcement just days after the Koch brothers revealed they are buying the White House in 2016. He doesn't have that kind of money. Several homes and an elevator for his car in La Jolla, yes. That kind of money, no.
    Why would any qualified candidate go through the anal exam liberals will do on a Republican candidate and put their family through it after going through it before? Anal exams only matter with Republicans but were ignored when Obama ran. How anyone could vote for Obama over Romney just goes to show the "stupidity of the American electorate."

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    In a capitalist system, where people have a right to accumulate capital, whats excessive? There should be no such thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    What amount of wealth is excessive?
    I'm not going to throw out a dollar amount, but in general, if we're to accept that "all men are created equal," then there shouldn't be men who have millions of times more influence than others, at least without being vetted by the election process, which includes checks and balances.

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