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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

  1. #801
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    We are all tied together. The actions of anyone impact everyone.

    It's my business when I'm being impacted by wealth buying votes.

    False dichotomy. Both the corrupted and the corruptors are bad.
    You don't get it, politicians buy your votes all the time with their rhetoric and you keep voting for the same ones over and over again. Why would you deny someone else the right to spend their own money and not hold those politicians accountable for having their votes bought. Guess only in your world is freedom defined by what you support?

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Did someone buy your vote or is it the votes of other people that are being "bought"? And how, exactly, does this vote buying work? How does someone sign up to get paid for voting?
    I am simply a series of influences. My influences are determined by society. So yes, my vote has been bought in the greater sense.

    We should have a marketplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace to remedy this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That "decidedly un-Marxist" individual said he didn't care and acknowledged that it's not his money, so it doesn't sound like he took "offense" at million dollar weddings like you did. One of you recognize that what other people do with their money isn't your business.... one of you don't. You're the one that doesn't.
    We both disliked it, we just had differing views on how to deal with things we respectfully disliked.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You don't get it, politicians buy your votes all the time with their rhetoric and you keep voting for the same ones over and over again. Why would you deny someone else the right to spend their own money and not hold those politicians accountable for having their votes bought. Guess only in your world is freedom defined by what you support?
    I'm advocating for more equal access to influence. Bigger pockets shouldn't justify a greater access.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I am simply a series of influences. My influences are determined by society. So yes, my vote has been bought in the greater sense.
    I have no idea what you're talking about except that you got your vote bought. Well, good for you. I hope you got your money's worth. So, how much did you sell it for?

    We should have a marketplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace to remedy this.
    Again, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding "markeplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace". Might I suggest trying to rephrase that so that it makes sense if you'd like to register your thoughts on the matter or wish for others to respond to whatever it is you're trying to say?

    We both disliked it, we just had differing views on how to deal with things we respectfully disliked.
    One of you understand that what other people do with their money is their business. One of you does not. The one who does not is demonstrating their Marxist bent. And that one is you.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I'm advocating for more equal access to influence. Bigger pockets shouldn't justify a greater access.
    Have you ever visited your Representative's Office in your District? Have you ever contacted your Representative by phone? Do you expect your Representative to contact you personally? you have access and if your vote can be bought you are part of the problem. George Soros cannot spend enough money to get me to vote for a liberal but if he wants to spend the money so be it.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about except that you got your vote bought. Well, good for you. I hope you got your money's worth. So, how much did you sell it for?



    Again, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding "markeplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace". Might I suggest trying to rephrase that so that it makes sense if you'd like to register your thoughts on the matter or wish for others to respond to whatever it is you're trying to say?



    One of you understand that what other people do with their money is their business. One of you does not. The one who does not is demonstrating their Marxist bent. And that one is you.
    I sold my vote for the low price of the false rhetoric that "unequal access is freedom." I'd like to prevent future votes from being purchased at this price.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I sold my vote for the low price of the false rhetoric that "unequal access is freedom." I'd like to prevent future votes from being purchased at this price.
    Poor dear! You were forced at gunpoint to "sell your vote" for the "low price" of "the false rhetoric" that "unequal access is freedom".

    So that's all you've got? Gibberish?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Have you ever visited your Representative's Office in your District? Have you ever contacted your Representative by phone? Do you expect your Representative to contact you personally? you have access and if your vote can be bought you are part of the problem. George Soros cannot spend enough money to get me to vote for a liberal but if he wants to spend the money so be it.
    Seems pretty straightforward to me. Everyone has the right to petition the government and I've never had anyone try to "buy my vote". Even if I did, I wouldn't sell my vote for whatever-the-hell Unreprsented was talking about selling his vote for. It sounded to me like he made a really stupid deal on that one.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And yet, despite much scholarly debate on the subject, it is generally agreed by scholars that campaign contributions generally don't affect the outcome of votes on bills in congress. Go figure, huh?
    And yet you cite a paper in which Footnote 1 is a long list of articles that do find such links. I'd quote it, but it's quite long and those interested can read it for themselves. Point is, "one study found X" =/= "generally agreed by scholars that X is true."

    Second, the study doesn't actually examine whether PAC contributions affect votes - PACs aren't necessarily ideological but the paper only evaluates ideological voting patterns. It looks at, for example, Am. Conser. Union (ACU) scores and finds that politicians' overall scores don't change much if at all on average in their last term. So, the paper finds that ideological conservatives vote conservative in their final term. It doesn't find that "PAC contributions from the for profit college industry had no effect on votes on higher education loan subsidies." The papers in Footnote 1 do look at PAC contributions ===> PAC votes and find the expected correlation.

    Third, taken at face value, the study indicates big money identifies candidates friendly to their interests on the front end. So Wall Street backs candidates with a history of supporting Wall Street, and their huge war chest helps them get elected and reelected. That the Wall Street friendly candidates vote that way even in their last term doesn't mean the money from Wall Street had no effect.

    Finally, I don't think the PACs and other big donors are stupid - they know the money they spend has an effect.

    Here is one passage:

    Specifications 10, 11, and 13–20 all indicate that campaign contributions are significantly related to changes in how a politician votes. The results generally parallel the preliminary findings shown in Table 4. Higher labor contributions are thus associated with a significantly more pro-union voting record and higher National Security Council contributions with a significantly more pro-defense voting record. While these correlations are consistent with politicians 1) being influenced by PAC contributions, they are also consistent with 2) greater contributions being made to those politicians that interest groups believe will represent their positions in future votes.
    I'm not sure what the importance is of those distinctions. And it's not an either/or question - almost surely it's both. PACs influence votes and PAC money helps elect members friendly to that PAC's interests.


    But you can educate yourself and read the WHOLE study, if you're so inclined. I suspect you aren't because I don't think you will accept data and conclusions that aren't aligned with what you want to believe. But just in case you actually care about what is true and correct, here's the study for you. http://www.campaignfreedom.org/wp-co...-And-Votes.pdf
    Well, I did read the whole study, briefly, but I suppose you'll claim vindication because I didn't accept that the findings prove what you think they proved. If you care about what is true and correct, maybe you'll have some response to the points I raised.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Poor dear! You were forced at gunpoint to "sell your vote" for the "low price" of "the false rhetoric" that "unequal access is freedom".

    So that's all you've got? Gibberish?
    No guns are needed. Excessive influence is far more effective. Sugar coated bullets are difficult to withstand.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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