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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The point is that worker owned businesses are one method to create a better balance between worker's rights and needs and owner's desire for profits. I disagree with the statement "It is a fantasy to think that kind of employment environment can be created."

    The plutocrats and their conservative allies constantly try to convince us that individual initiative is the only way to achieve a rewarding work life and that we need to accept the ups and downs of the global economy and corporate/plutocrat decisions. My point is that workers and others can organize, take action to create alternative business models and implement regulations so that workers aren't divided and conquered by plutocrats trying to maximize profits by sacrificing their employee's quality of life.
    Do you have some examples of where 'worker owned businesses' have accomplished that?

    Because I do....a lot in fact during the 80's and 90's, all gone but a few now....

    all but a few.....Just one good success will do
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Why are you convinced that requiring importers of goods into the USA to meet standards for adequate pay and safe conditions for all workers will fail? It has never been tried. We already successfully prohibit goods from certain nations for political reasons, we can make worker welfare and safety another reason to ban or limit imports from a particular country. There are already several voluntary/consumer inspired measures that have had some success. One example:

    "Two big groups of retailers and apparel brands have completed a major step toward advancing garment-factory safety in Bangladesh: They have finished inspecting nearly 1,700 factories in that country.

    A European-dominated group — the Bangladesh Accord on Fire and Building Safety, with 189 corporate members, including H&M and Carrefour — said on Tuesday that it had found more than 80,000 safety problems in the 1,106 factories it inspected.

    The other — an American-dominated group, the Alliance for Bangladesh Worker Safety — completed inspections in July of the 587 factories that its 26 members, including Walmart, Gap and Target, use in that country.

    The groups are working with Bangladeshi factory owners to promote safety and finance improvements, like fireproof doors or fire-sprinkler systems, that are required for garment factories 75 feet or taller in Bangladesh...."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/14/bu...ies-.html?_r=0
    I think you may have answered your own question, although you didn't know it. "It has never been tried." Why hasn't it? Is it that the people in these other countries aren't interested in what we define as adequate pay and safe conditions? What's better, stop doing business so the companies close their doors, and let the poor walk the streets? Isn't it up to those workers to take control of their own destiny?

    It costs pennies to dollars to live in many foreign countries. How is that difference going to be overcome? Who is going to make sure it's enforced.

    You want to change things, refuse to buy anything, including fruits and other products, that is not manufactured in the United States. Get your friends to follow the same plan of action. Zero foreign goods. A veritable Vegan of domestic goods. Otherwise good luck.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    And in some magical way, these worker owned businesses are going to avoid the ups and downs of the economy? I can't imagine what type of regulations could be adopted and forced upon the economy that would protect this "model" you are describing. At no time in human history has such a thing taken place on any grand scale, and for any significant length of time, at least that I am aware of.


    A noted above, Canada is way ahead of you on social experiments....and that one failed too.

    The biggest was a saw mill in Chemanus, BC. 227 workers. After three government bail outs over nine years, they were the first to go when trouble came.

    The mills sits and rusts
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    A noted above, Canada is way ahead of you on social experiments....and that one failed too.

    The biggest was a saw mill in Chemanus, BC. 227 workers. After three government bail outs over nine years, they were the first to go when trouble came.

    The mills sits and rusts
    We, meaning Man, is designed to survive, and be the fittest. The earliest man didn't stay in the cradle of man amongst the others forever. A leader stepped forward, and led others to more fertile land, and this high risk, high reward migration and civilization forming continues to take place, whether it be to form a new town, or to form a business to benefit one and many.

    This collective stuff will always fail because it goes against human nature. In my experience it's promoted by people who aren't the leaders seeking new destinies, but followers too frightened to take responsibility for themselves.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    And in some magical way, these worker owned businesses are going to avoid the ups and downs of the economy? I can't imagine what type of regulations could be adopted and forced upon the economy that would protect this "model" you are describing. At no time in human history has such a thing taken place on any grand scale, and for any significant length of time, at least that I am aware of.
    I did not say that worker owned businesses are going to avoid the ups and downs of the economy and I don't know of any reason why they need special regulations to be adopted and forced upon the economy to protect this "model." They will face all the same challenges as other businesses. The difference between a worker owned business and a typical corporation is that the owners will not have an incentive to screw over the workers simply to increase profits. The workers may choose to reduce their wages or benefits, maybe even lay off a few people at times so they can survive a bad economic period. But they won't take such measures unless it is necessary for survival. By comparison, we have seen profitable companies close factories and move overseas only so the top executives can keep their high salaries and the majority stock holders can see a quicker and larger profit from their investments.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-02-15 at 10:22 PM.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Do you have some examples of where 'worker owned businesses' have accomplished that?

    Because I do....a lot in fact during the 80's and 90's, all gone but a few now....

    all but a few.....Just one good success will do
    As previously posted in post #726 One example: Photography company Lifetouch is 100% employee owned, has 25,000 employees and has been in business since 1977. (38 years)
    The Employee Ownership 100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I think you may have answered your own question, although you didn't know it. "It has never been tried." Why hasn't it? Is it that the people in these other countries aren't interested in what we define as adequate pay and safe conditions? What's better, stop doing business so the companies close their doors, and let the poor walk the streets? Isn't it up to those workers to take control of their own destiny?

    It costs pennies to dollars to live in many foreign countries. How is that difference going to be overcome? Who is going to make sure it's enforced.

    You want to change things, refuse to buy anything, including fruits and other products, that is not manufactured in the United States. Get your friends to follow the same plan of action. Zero foreign goods. A veritable Vegan of domestic goods. Otherwise good luck.
    It hasn't been tried because it is not in the interest of the people in power to do it. The people will need to force the issue. Also, globalization is relatively recent phenomena enabled by improved transportation and communications technologies.

    As I previously said, the assessment of whether a country provides adequate wages and decent working conditions needs to account for different costs of living in other countries. If the owners of overseas factories don't care about the welfare of their workers they are likely to change their mind if they lose all business from a nation as large and wealthy as the USA. If the movement to ban exports from exploitative businesses and nations without basic worker's rights goes international, it will become even more effective. The international boycotts and embargoes of apartheid era South Africa are one example of using trade policy to impact policies in another nation.

    In many places workers are too desperate or lack the protection of their civil rights required to effectively advocate for their own interests.

    The USA already has embargoes against other nations such as Iran, Russia and Cuba. The existing enforcement mechanism for those embargoes would be used for enforcing future embargoes.

    Note that before NAFTA and the opening of trade with China, worker's in the USA enjoyed more employment stability, the protection of union jobs, a better standard of living and less unemployment. Opening up those markets may have been benefited some people at the top of our economic food chain, but it has mostly hurt workers.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-02-15 at 10:27 PM.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    We, meaning Man, is designed to survive, and be the fittest. The earliest man didn't stay in the cradle of man amongst the others forever. A leader stepped forward, and led others to more fertile land, and this high risk, high reward migration and civilization forming continues to take place, whether it be to form a new town, or to form a business to benefit one and many.

    This collective stuff will always fail because it goes against human nature. In my experience it's promoted by people who aren't the leaders seeking new destinies, but followers too frightened to take responsibility for themselves.
    Didn't those "leaders" need to have followers, and investors/supporters helping them to move and build in the more fertile land? Individual innovation and risk taking is important, but so is team building, cooperation and community. We can't have leaders without followers, and people don't follow unless there is a benefit for them.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    "Mondragon: This is the seventh largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover, providing employment for 83,869 people in 256 companies. It operates in four areas: finance, industry, retail and knowledge. Co-operatives are owned by their worker-members and power is based on the principle of one person, one vote. A portion of each member enterprise’s net revenue goes to a fund for research and development, which finances new product development. R&D employs 800 people with a budget of more than $75 million. In 2010, 21.4 per cent of sales comprised new products and services that did not exist five years earlier. John Lewis: The British company is hailed as one of the best models of worker-owned businesses. Employee-owned since 1929, it has sales of 8.7 billion ($12.7 billion), 81,000 employees, and profits of 354 million. Over the last 50 years, the average bonus has been 16 per cent of the annual wage (compared with 0 per cent to 3 per cent in British industries in general in the last three years)...People power: 3 of the world’s most successful employee-owned businesses

    "...the authors’* research shows that on average, firms which give their employees an ownership stake are more productive, more innovative, and are more desirable workplaces for employees. As the authors put it, “[employee ownership] pays off, at least for those firms and workers that choose it.” And the successes of these companies, combined with the unique troubles the average American worker is suffering, make it plausible that expanding employee ownership could be a solution to the problems of stagnating worker compensation and rising income inequality. The authors suggest a number of steps to encourage Corporate America to rely more on employee ownership in their structures, including tax incentives and the liberalization of state-based restrictions on the type of companies that can be incorporated...."

    *of The Citizen’s Share, Joseph Blasi, Douglas L. Kruse, and Richard B. Freeman (a sociologist and two economists, respectively)
    http://business.time.com/2013/11/19/...t-the-economy/

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    But the most dirty air is coming out of D.C. and there is nothing the Federal Govt. can do to stop it, only the electorate can stop it and as Gruber stated many aren't very smart
    Most of the hot air is coming from DC at any rate.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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