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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

  1. #721
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The 1970 law gives individuals and groups the right to sue polluters and/or the government for failing to do the enforcement required to protect their defacto right to reasonably clean air.
    Wrong.
    You clearly do not know the difference between a law and a "right".
    The law allows, it does not make it a "right".
    Nor does your absurd argument even pertain.

    Again.
    No such "right" to unpolluted air exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    There is one example of a state actually taking it on. It seems like it's pretty successful:



    the cost of living in Hawaii is the nation's highest, but their health care costs are among the lowest.

    Interesting.

    Maybe their health is suffering as a result?



    Nope. I guess not.

    So, you do have a point. If more states were to adopt Hawaii's universal health care, or something like it, and the feds just got out of the health care business altogether, we could actually have a better system at a lower cost.
    That has always been the point, the states are closest to the people and have the most to lose should a program fail and the most to gain if it succeeds. States are laboratories and are the closest to the people. The Federal Govt. record on social programs is a disaster which makes me wonder why anyone would think that Obamacare will be any different?

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I know exactly why you think it is happening.

    Because simply stating that corporate fiduciary duty ****ing REQUIRES the maximization of profit for stockholders and that means exploiting the desperate elsewhere and replacing expensive workers with machines just doesn't sway swing voters, nor maintain support for what our form of capitalism has become.

    It is what it is, and we are subject to a constant barrage of persuasive messaging, squeaking the toy to distract us from what is demonstrably happening because we would never accept the current iteration of the "divvy up" and lots of folks are getting fat on the current model.

    Y'all squawk about people needing to get the skills to compete in the new economy like there would be jobs for them if they did. And basically give a big "**** You" to all the janitors and cooks and sewer screen cleaners because their efforts don't generate profits for owners, the only worthy thing for any human to do in YOUR paradise.

    Just to deconstruct one of your frames beforehand, labor cost differential completely negates any issues of taxes and regulations. One can literally get a whole small factory of semi skilled workers for 12-14 hours for what one burger flipper gets here for 8.

    Business moved to foreign labor because it was cheaper and POSSIBLE due to advances in container ship technology, computers and telecommunication.

    Because it is more profitable, plain and simple.

    Same with automation. Simple truth. Business 101. Required by law for corporate officers.

    Far too much of your rhetoric is a bald attempt to keep people from thinking about these simple, demonstrable truths. Because if they do, they will demand revision of our utterly made up economic philosophy because it is no longer serving everyone in our society. The balance of power between capital and labor has shifted too far towards capital, and capitalism is now serving the ownership class FAR better than it is serving the working class.
    You know exactly? I don't think so. I will say, you've touched on some legitimate truths. However, your anger and frustration is keeping you for boring down to foundation, the gensis so to speak.

    Profits are key, that is a simple truth that knows no ideological boundary. No profits, no company. No company, no jobs.

    It's easy to get lost in the platitudes of reasons presented by those with an agenda. What are the solutions then? Nationalizing business? Setting regulations that require certain standards of pay and benefits be required to do business in the US? Those are the very things that have resulted in the US giving away it's advantages in many areas of business. Does that mean sweat shops and 7 day weeks? Of course not. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest to make that assumption.

    It's not for business to exist for the pleasure of it's employees. It is a fantasy to think that is true. It is a fantasy to think that kind of employment environment can be created. If you think this can be achieved, seal the borders, allow no imports, allow no exports. Require all goods be created and consumed domestically. Go back to the 1800's before the business community in the US learned the capacity to produce far exceeded the capacity to consume.

    Consider the "maker" communities of startups springing up around the country. What an awesome deal. However, when a great product proves it's place in the market, and demand shoots through the roof, where do they turn to produce products to meet that demand? Why is it so hard for domestic companies to provide that service? Sure, labor cost is an issue, but it's an incremental issue that can be absorbed into the unit cost per item produced. $2.00 in labor domestic, versus $.50 in labor offshore? Pffft. Unless the item requires a retail price of $10, that $2.00 is no big deal.

    Learn rather than accuse. You're rants, accusations, and assumptions will never address the facts. They are just an excuse. That will never pay the bills.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    .... Setting regulations that require certain standards of pay and benefits be required to do business in the US....
    Yes, we should continue doing that and start requiring those standards (adjusted for differing costs of living of course) from those who import goods into the country. That has never been tried. Requiring adequate pay and safe conditions for all workers will reduce runaway shops, improve the quality of life for exploited workers around the world, and eliminate cheap labor as a competitive advantage for those who compete with the USA. We should also require meeting environmental standards to import goods into the USA.

    Yes, we need to keep in mind that overly restrictive rules will result in more smuggling and a black market, so the regulations need to be realistic and phased in over time. To acheive this will require both legislation (which will be extremely difficult to acheive due to corporate dominance over our government) as well as an engaged public willing and able to use boycotts to motivate the profiteers to act like decent humans.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-31-15 at 05:05 PM.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No such "right" to unpolluted air exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.[/FONT][/COLOR][/INDENT][/INDENT]
    Maybe you don't claim that right, but I do.

    Not to perfectly clean air, but I have right to air that is not significantly unhealthy. I will fight for that right. I am joined by everyone who supports laws restricting air emissions, the members of organizations that fight pollution and especially by those who took advantage of the 1970 Clean Air Act's authorization to sue polluters and/or government aganecies that fail to enforce the law.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-31-15 at 05:15 PM.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ....It's not for business to exist for the pleasure of it's employees. It is a fantasy to think that is true. It is a fantasy to think that kind of employment environment can be created. ....
    Businesses exist for the pleasure (or necessity) of the owners. If the owners are the employees, then the business exists for the pleasure of the employees. That is the case with many very small businesses and cooperatives. Forming worker-owned cooperatives is a way we can balance the need for adequate profit with the welfare of the workers. The difficult part is developing good processes for selecting the members and for making policy decisions.

    One example: Photography company Lifetouch is 100% employee owned, has 25,000 employees and has been in business since 1977. (38 years)
    The Employee Ownership 100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Maybe you don't claim that right, but I do.

    You go right on ahead. No such right exists.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    You go right on ahead. No such right exists.
    I think you're missing that clean air is just another property right, and if rights to property exist, then so do rights to clean air. The only issue is defining where that right begins and ends.

    You certainly can't set up shop next to my house and start burning items that produce poisonous gases. When you do that, you're infringing on the property rights of everyone downwind of you. But in most places you can burn wood in your fireplace....

  9. #729
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Yes, we should continue doing that and start requiring those standards (adjusted for differing costs of living of course) from those who import goods into the country. That has never been tried. Requiring adequate pay and safe conditions for all workers will reduce runaway shops, improve the quality of life for exploited workers around the world, and eliminate cheap labor as a competitive advantage for those who compete with the USA. We should also require meeting environmental standards to import goods into the USA.

    Yes, we need to keep in mind that overly restrictive rules will result in more smuggling and a black market, so the regulations need to be realistic and phased in over time. To acheive this will require both legislation (which will be extremely difficult to acheive due to corporate dominance over our government) as well as an engaged public willing and able to use boycotts to motivate the profiteers to act like decent humans.
    What do you think the cost of living is in Thailand? What do you think it is in other countries where manufacturing is taking place? There will never be parity, no matter what is tried. How about domestically?

    It's interesting you sliced out just one point you thought you could address.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Businesses exist for the pleasure (or necessity) of the owners. If the owners are the employees, then the business exists for the pleasure of the employees. That is the case with many very small businesses and cooperatives. Forming worker-owned cooperatives is a way we can balance the need for adequate profit with the welfare of the workers. The difficult part is developing good processes for selecting the members and for making policy decisions.

    One example: Photography company Lifetouch is 100% employee owned, has 25,000 employees and has been in business since 1977. (38 years)
    The Employee Ownership 100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies
    As your link illustrated, stock holders are owners too. And in many cases, they are also employees. Cooperatives exist, and have had limited success, but have failed in the majority of cases to carry on to a larger scale due to division of effort and vision conflicts.

    ESOP's have been around a long time, so I'm not sure the point you're trying to make.

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