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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

  1. #711
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    and that shoots down totally the "if only insurance companies could compete across state lines" solution to the most expensive health care on Earth.

    What, again, is the Republican plan? I mean, once they overturn the ACA, what will replace it?
    My hope is nothing as I have stated over and over again this is a state issue and up to the electorate of the state to decide, not a federal bureaucrat in D.C. I keep asking myself why does anyone still believe anything that comes out of Washington? Did you ever ask yourself why those Federal bureaucrats are pushing so hard for ACA? couldn't have anything to do with control, power, and more money now could it?

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Re-read post #639 and you'll see that you made several assumptions that were not based on what I actually wrote. I was addressing which government programs are labeled as socialist.
    So what you are telling me is you weren't basing support on Federal Govt. mandate for health insurance on state issues like schools, police, fire, roads, hospitals, etc? I made assumptions indeed based upon what you posted not what you think you said.

    Most people in the USA have no problem with socialized schools, emergency medical services, police, fire fighting, road building and repair, public transportation etc. but if you advocate for socialized medical care you are labeled a socialist
    Looks to me like you are comparing Federally mandated healthcare to state and local issues like the ones I mentioned. There is no comparison as healthcare is a personal issue

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    OK if you say so. I'm happy to know I can build a smelting plant next to your home without you objecting.
    Oh look, more silliness from you. Figures.

    Again:
    No such right exists.
    You do not have the "right" to non-polluted air.


    So back to the original comment.

    You have a right to petition the Government for redress of your grievance, but as of yet there is nothing enunciated anywhere within the Constitution that says you have a "right" to breathe unpolluted air.

    If that were the case, automobiles and chimneys would have been outlawed long ago.

    Do you, or do you not understand that having a "right" to petition the Gov for redress of a grievance allows you to complain/seek redress etc... to stop that which is actually wrongly harming/affecting you?
    But you have no "right" to unpolluted air (which was the false and corrected claim), as no such right exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.

    So stop playing your absurd game of bringing up irrelevant bs. No such right exists.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Oh look, more silliness from you. Figures.

    Again:
    No such right exists.
    You do not have the "right" to non-polluted air.


    So back to the original comment.

    You have a right to petition the Government for redress of your grievance, but as of yet there is nothing enunciated anywhere within the Constitution that says you have a "right" to breathe unpolluted air.

    If that were the case, automobiles and chimneys would have been outlawed long ago.

    Do you, or do you not understand that having a "right" to petition the Gov for redress of a grievance allows you to complain/seek redress etc... to stop that which is actually wrongly harming/affecting you?
    But you have no "right" to unpolluted air (which was the false and corrected claim), as no such right exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.

    So stop playing your absurd game of bringing up irrelevant bs. No such right exists.
    The constitution is not the last word in establishing our rights. The ninth amendment makes that clear: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    In the USA the constitution, ratified treaties, case law and legislation determine our rights under the law. Otherwise, our rights are a matter of opinion. Google "right to clean air" and you will find many people and organizations who share my opinion that everyone has a right to clean air.

    In passing the Clean Air Act of 1970 our legislators empowered citizens to sue polluters who violate limitations on air pollution and to sue regulators for failing to enforce the law. That is a defacto right to clean air. Not perfectly clean air, but relatively clean air per established standards.

    "In 1970, when amending the Clean Air Act, the United States Congress was inspired by similar legislation in the civil rights arena[5] to begin including specific provisions for citizens to bring suit against violators or government agencies to enforce environmental laws. Today, most anti-pollution laws have provisions for citizen suits and they have become a major means of ensuring compliance with environmental laws."
    Wikipedia

    1970 Clean Air Act text: https://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/docu...PDF/91-604.pdf

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The constitution is not the last word in establishing our rights. The ninth amendment makes that clear: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    In the USA the constitution, ratified treaties, case law and legislation determine our rights under the law. Otherwise, our rights are a matter of opinion. Google "right to clean air" and you will find many people and organizations who share my opinion that we have a right to clean air.

    In passing the Clean Air Act of 1970 our legislators empowered citizens to sue polluters who violate limitations on air pollution and to sue regulators for failing to enforce the law. That is a defacto right to clean air. Not perfectly clean air, but relatively clean air per established standards.

    "In 1970, when amending the Clean Air Act, the United States Congress was inspired by similar legislation in the civil rights arena[5] to begin including specific provisions for citizens to bring suit against violators or government agencies to enforce environmental laws. Today, most anti-pollution laws have provisions for citizen suits and they have become a major means of ensuring compliance with environmental laws."
    Wikipedia

    1970 Clean Air Act text: https://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/docu...PDF/91-604.pdf
    "The Constitution is what the judges say it is." --Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The government makes the rules ultimately, that where change needs to occur. Govt cannot control every aspect of your life though and make everything all fair. Too many rules can have their own unintended effects.
    You're not saying much of anything. Yes, I agree, we don't want to have too much government and too many rules. Government cannot make everything fair. I agree with that too, so you're not really addressing anything that I have said. If you claim government itself creates poverty, not the 1%, not the private sector, not crony capitalism, etc., then you're failing to admit the very top of the 1% are influencing policy and legislation, and it's leading to crony markets, not free markets.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    My hope is nothing as I have stated over and over again this is a state issue and up to the electorate of the state to decide, not a federal bureaucrat in D.C. I keep asking myself why does anyone still believe anything that comes out of Washington? Did you ever ask yourself why those Federal bureaucrats are pushing so hard for ACA? couldn't have anything to do with control, power, and more money now could it?
    There is one example of a state actually taking it on. It seems like it's pretty successful:

    But perhaps the most intriguing lesson from Hawaii has to do with costs. This is a state where regular milk sells for $8 a gallon, gasoline costs $3.60 a gallon and the median price of a home in 2008 was $624,000 — the second-highest in the nation. Despite this, Hawaii’s health insurance premiums are nearly tied with North Dakota for the lowest in the country, and Medicare costs per beneficiary are the nation’s lowest.
    the cost of living in Hawaii is the nation's highest, but their health care costs are among the lowest.

    Interesting.

    Maybe their health is suffering as a result?

    Hawaii residents live longer than people in the rest of the country, recent surveys have shown, and the state’s health care system may be one reason. In one example, Hawaii has the nation’s highest incidence of breast cancer but the lowest death rate from the disease.
    Nope. I guess not.

    So, you do have a point. If more states were to adopt Hawaii's universal health care, or something like it, and the feds just got out of the health care business altogether, we could actually have a better system at a lower cost.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The constitution is not the last word in establishing our rights. The ninth amendment makes that clear: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    In the USA the constitution, ratified treaties, case law and legislation determine our rights under the law. Otherwise, our rights are a matter of opinion. Google "right to clean air" and you will find many people and organizations who share my opinion that everyone has a right to clean air.

    In passing the Clean Air Act of 1970 our legislators empowered citizens to sue polluters who violate limitations on air pollution and to sue regulators for failing to enforce the law. That is a defacto right to clean air. Not perfectly clean air, but relatively clean air per established standards.

    "In 1970, when amending the Clean Air Act, the United States Congress was inspired by similar legislation in the civil rights arena[5] to begin including specific provisions for citizens to bring suit against violators or government agencies to enforce environmental laws. Today, most anti-pollution laws have provisions for citizen suits and they have become a major means of ensuring compliance with environmental laws."
    Wikipedia

    1970 Clean Air Act text: https://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/docu...PDF/91-604.pdf


    Nothing you said counters the fact that no such "right" to unpolluted air exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.

    And clearly you do not know the difference between a "right" and a law.

    (And just in case some idiot comes along to assert there is rarefied air, the air I am speaking about it the atmosphere which we all breath on a daily basis.
    It is naturally polluted to some extent.)
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post


    Nothing you said counters the fact that no such "right" to unpolluted air exists, nor could it as all air is naturally polluted to some extent.

    And clearly you do not know the difference between a "right" and a law.

    (And just in case some idiot comes along to assert there is rarefied air, the air I am speaking about it the atmosphere which we all breath on a daily basis.
    It is naturally polluted to some extent.)
    The 1970 law gives individuals and groups the right to sue polluters and/or the government for failing to do the enforcement required to protect their defacto right to reasonably clean air.

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