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Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

We are all tied together. The actions of anyone impact everyone.

It's my business when I'm being impacted by wealth buying votes.

False dichotomy. Both the corrupted and the corruptors are bad.

You don't get it, politicians buy your votes all the time with their rhetoric and you keep voting for the same ones over and over again. Why would you deny someone else the right to spend their own money and not hold those politicians accountable for having their votes bought. Guess only in your world is freedom defined by what you support?
 
Did someone buy your vote or is it the votes of other people that are being "bought"? And how, exactly, does this vote buying work? How does someone sign up to get paid for voting?
I am simply a series of influences. My influences are determined by society. So yes, my vote has been bought in the greater sense.

We should have a marketplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace to remedy this.

That "decidedly un-Marxist" individual said he didn't care and acknowledged that it's not his money, so it doesn't sound like he took "offense" at million dollar weddings like you did. One of you recognize that what other people do with their money isn't your business.... one of you don't. You're the one that doesn't.

We both disliked it, we just had differing views on how to deal with things we respectfully disliked.
 
You don't get it, politicians buy your votes all the time with their rhetoric and you keep voting for the same ones over and over again. Why would you deny someone else the right to spend their own money and not hold those politicians accountable for having their votes bought. Guess only in your world is freedom defined by what you support?

I'm advocating for more equal access to influence. Bigger pockets shouldn't justify a greater access.
 
I am simply a series of influences. My influences are determined by society. So yes, my vote has been bought in the greater sense.

I have no idea what you're talking about except that you got your vote bought. Well, good for you. I hope you got your money's worth. So, how much did you sell it for?

We should have a marketplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace to remedy this.

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding "markeplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace". Might I suggest trying to rephrase that so that it makes sense if you'd like to register your thoughts on the matter or wish for others to respond to whatever it is you're trying to say?

We both disliked it, we just had differing views on how to deal with things we respectfully disliked.

One of you understand that what other people do with their money is their business. One of you does not. The one who does not is demonstrating their Marxist bent. And that one is you.
 
I'm advocating for more equal access to influence. Bigger pockets shouldn't justify a greater access.

Have you ever visited your Representative's Office in your District? Have you ever contacted your Representative by phone? Do you expect your Representative to contact you personally? you have access and if your vote can be bought you are part of the problem. George Soros cannot spend enough money to get me to vote for a liberal but if he wants to spend the money so be it.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about except that you got your vote bought. Well, good for you. I hope you got your money's worth. So, how much did you sell it for?



Again, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding "markeplace for political discussion that's more independent of the financial marketplace". Might I suggest trying to rephrase that so that it makes sense if you'd like to register your thoughts on the matter or wish for others to respond to whatever it is you're trying to say?



One of you understand that what other people do with their money is their business. One of you does not. The one who does not is demonstrating their Marxist bent. And that one is you.
I sold my vote for the low price of the false rhetoric that "unequal access is freedom." I'd like to prevent future votes from being purchased at this price.
 
I sold my vote for the low price of the false rhetoric that "unequal access is freedom." I'd like to prevent future votes from being purchased at this price.

Poor dear! You were forced at gunpoint to "sell your vote" for the "low price" of "the false rhetoric" that "unequal access is freedom".

So that's all you've got? Gibberish?
 
Have you ever visited your Representative's Office in your District? Have you ever contacted your Representative by phone? Do you expect your Representative to contact you personally? you have access and if your vote can be bought you are part of the problem. George Soros cannot spend enough money to get me to vote for a liberal but if he wants to spend the money so be it.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Everyone has the right to petition the government and I've never had anyone try to "buy my vote". Even if I did, I wouldn't sell my vote for whatever-the-hell Unreprsented was talking about selling his vote for. It sounded to me like he made a really stupid deal on that one.
 
And yet, despite much scholarly debate on the subject, it is generally agreed by scholars that campaign contributions generally don't affect the outcome of votes on bills in congress. Go figure, huh?

And yet you cite a paper in which Footnote 1 is a long list of articles that do find such links. I'd quote it, but it's quite long and those interested can read it for themselves. Point is, "one study found X" =/= "generally agreed by scholars that X is true."

Second, the study doesn't actually examine whether PAC contributions affect votes - PACs aren't necessarily ideological but the paper only evaluates ideological voting patterns. It looks at, for example, Am. Conser. Union (ACU) scores and finds that politicians' overall scores don't change much if at all on average in their last term. So, the paper finds that ideological conservatives vote conservative in their final term. It doesn't find that "PAC contributions from the for profit college industry had no effect on votes on higher education loan subsidies." The papers in Footnote 1 do look at PAC contributions ===> PAC votes and find the expected correlation.

Third, taken at face value, the study indicates big money identifies candidates friendly to their interests on the front end. So Wall Street backs candidates with a history of supporting Wall Street, and their huge war chest helps them get elected and reelected. That the Wall Street friendly candidates vote that way even in their last term doesn't mean the money from Wall Street had no effect.

Finally, I don't think the PACs and other big donors are stupid - they know the money they spend has an effect.

Here is one passage:

Specifications 10, 11, and 13–20 all indicate that campaign contributions are significantly related to changes in how a politician votes. The results generally parallel the preliminary findings shown in Table 4. Higher labor contributions are thus associated with a significantly more pro-union voting record and higher National Security Council contributions with a significantly more pro-defense voting record. While these correlations are consistent with politicians 1) being influenced by PAC contributions, they are also consistent with 2) greater contributions being made to those politicians that interest groups believe will represent their positions in future votes.

I'm not sure what the importance is of those distinctions. And it's not an either/or question - almost surely it's both. PACs influence votes and PAC money helps elect members friendly to that PAC's interests.


But you can educate yourself and read the WHOLE study, if you're so inclined. I suspect you aren't because I don't think you will accept data and conclusions that aren't aligned with what you want to believe. But just in case you actually care about what is true and correct, here's the study for you. :) http://www.campaignfreedom.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Bronars-1997-Money-And-Votes.pdf

Well, I did read the whole study, briefly, but I suppose you'll claim vindication because I didn't accept that the findings prove what you think they proved. If you care about what is true and correct, maybe you'll have some response to the points I raised.
 
Poor dear! You were forced at gunpoint to "sell your vote" for the "low price" of "the false rhetoric" that "unequal access is freedom".

So that's all you've got? Gibberish?
No guns are needed. Excessive influence is far more effective. Sugar coated bullets are difficult to withstand.
 
And yet you cite a paper in which Footnote 1 is a long list of articles that do find such links. I'd quote it, but it's quite long and those interested can read it for themselves. Point is, "one study found X" =/= "generally agreed by scholars that X is true."

Second, the study doesn't actually examine whether PAC contributions affect votes - PACs aren't necessarily ideological but the paper only evaluates ideological voting patterns. It looks at, for example, Am. Conser. Union (ACU) scores and finds that politicians' overall scores don't change much if at all on average in their last term. So, the paper finds that ideological conservatives vote conservative in their final term. It doesn't find that "PAC contributions from the for profit college industry had no effect on votes on higher education loan subsidies." The papers in Footnote 1 do look at PAC contributions ===> PAC votes and find the expected correlation.

Third, taken at face value, the study indicates big money identifies candidates friendly to their interests on the front end. So Wall Street backs candidates with a history of supporting Wall Street, and their huge war chest helps them get elected and reelected. That the Wall Street friendly candidates vote that way even in their last term doesn't mean the money from Wall Street had no effect.

Finally, I don't think the PACs and other big donors are stupid - they know the money they spend has an effect.

Here is one passage:



I'm not sure what the importance is of those distinctions. And it's not an either/or question - almost surely it's both. PACs influence votes and PAC money helps elect members friendly to that PAC's interests.




Well, I did read the whole study, briefly, but I suppose you'll claim vindication because I didn't accept that the findings prove what you think they proved. If you care about what is true and correct, maybe you'll have some response to the points I raised.

My response is that you can cherry pick little factoids and disregard the overall findings if that suits your political agenda, but it's not an intellectually honest take on this.
 
My response is that you can cherry pick little factoids and disregard the overall findings if that suits your political agenda, but it's not an intellectually honest take on this.

Why not? Let's start with just one question. Do you think the people who fund PACs and donate millions to candidates are stupid and don't realize that their money has no effect?

IMO, they're very sophisticated groups and know exactly how much influence money has on the process and end results, and that it's probably the best investment the firms behind the PACs make all year in terms of ROI.
 
Why not? Let's start with just one question. Do you think the people who fund PACs and donate millions to candidates are stupid and don't realize that their money has no effect?

Who said it had no effect? That's a stupid thing to assert and I didn't assert it. That's YOUR assertion. It has a very important effect. The campaign donations to the people/party that best represent your views help the politicians that best represent your views get elected by funding their travel and campaign spending. That's an important effect. I'm surprised you don't see that.

IMO, they're very sophisticated groups and know exactly how much influence money has on the process and end results, and that it's probably the best investment the firms behind the PACs make all year in terms of ROI.

But of course you believe that. And I wouldn't expect the facts and analysis in that study to change what you believe because I know you really want to believe it very much.
 
Who said it had no effect? That's a stupid thing to assert and I didn't assert it. That's YOUR assertion. It has a very important effect. The campaign donations to the people/party that best represent your views help the politicians that best represent your views get elected by funding their travel and campaign spending. That's an important effect. I'm surprised you don't see that.

But of course you believe that. And I wouldn't expect the facts and analysis in that study to change what you believe because I know you really want to believe it very much.

We're arguing in circles. What I said was it doesn't matter whether the money gets (e.g.) Wall Street lackeys elected, or whether the money influences votes after they get elected. It's probably both and in any case the money is buying influence.

So then you say, "[The money] has a very important effect." Which is of course what I said - so we agree, the money matters a great deal - it's "important."

But then in the same post you say I'm somehow wrong for believing "it's probably the best investment... in terms of ROI." Well you just said the money was important, so are we just disagreeing on HOW important and whether the ROI of a 100k in employee training is higher or lower than $100,000 into the PAC funneled to the Chair of the Senate Finance Committee? I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

And BTW, again, "one study finds X" really doesn't mean that the academic community agrees that X is true. Reread Footnote 1 to your paper.
 
We're arguing in circles. What I said was it doesn't matter whether the money gets (e.g.) Wall Street lackeys elected, or whether the money influences votes after they get elected. It's probably both and in any case the money is buying influence.

So then you say, "[The money] has a very important effect." Which is of course what I said - so we agree, the money matters a great deal - it's "important."

But then in the same post you say I'm somehow wrong for believing "it's probably the best investment... in terms of ROI." Well you just said the money was important, so are we just disagreeing on HOW important and whether the ROI of a 100k in employee training is higher or lower than $100,000 into the PAC funneled to the Chair of the Senate Finance Committee? I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

And BTW, again, "one study finds X" really doesn't mean that the academic community agrees that X is true. Reread Footnote 1 to your paper.

We are arguing in circles but that's not my fault.

The study I posted demonstrates that there is no evidence that campaign donations buys the politician's votes on legislation (a claim frequently made but unsupportable).

The fact that campaign donations DO help a candidate pay their bills on the campaign trail isn't a problem. That's just you and me and everyone else supporting the candidates that we think will best represent our own interests. That is, however, NOT buying influence. The fact that you're helping the guy YOU want to get elected by donating to his campaign (or taking out ads asking people to vote for him) doesn't "buy you influence". The candidate is going to vote on legislation however he votes on legislation (and unless you are a fool, you should know where he'll stand if you're going to support him.)

There is no "return on investment". You don't even know if your guy will get elected. You just pony up your donations to help the guy that YOU want to get elected. There's nothing at all nefarious about that.

If you want to dispute the facts or the reasoning of that paper, go ahead and give it your best shot. Provide evidence that contradicts it and we'll see what you've got and how much weight to give it vs. the facts and analysis we see in that study.

I know it just chaffs you something awful that free speech was supported by the Supreme Court via the Citizens United decision, but the decision was right and you might as well just get used to it. Screeching that "campaign donations buy votes" doesn't make it true and it isn't going to reverse Citizens United. You might as well get used to the fact that free speech applies to everyone and not just to those people and groups you support and like.
 
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Am I a Marxist? What makes unrepresented a Marxist? What makes Bill and Melinda Gates, Matt Damon, or George Soros not Marxists in comparison?

We've already established that, since I am left of center, I am a liar. So now let's get into whether or not I am a Marxist.

Do you believe that the rich ought to pay of a percentage of their wealth to fund government programs intended to transfer wealth to government workers and "the poor"? If so you just might be a Marxist.
Do you believe that some should rule over the many because the many must be led (the dictatorship of the protes)?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that the productive steal from the poor?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that capitalism must be weakened or even destroyed for equality's sake?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that the government must dominate and control everything for the sake of fairness?
If so you just might be a neo-Marxist.
 
Authoritarian government being bad doesn't mean that excessive wealth, and the excessive influence it buys, isn't bad as well.

"Excessive wealth" is a phrase Marxists and neo-Marxists use. One either has a right to one's property or one does not. If one believes the former one very likely supports individual liberty and individual freedoms. If one believes the latter than one is likely a collectivist with his greedy eyes on someone else's property. One who believes the latter very likely has the heart of a Marxist and a tyrant.
 
We are all tied together. The actions of anyone impact everyone.

It's my business when I'm being impacted by wealth buying votes.

False dichotomy. Both the corrupted and the corruptors are bad.

Perhaps you should fight to eliminate the massive amounts of legal plunder that occurs now at the Federal level. If we reject legal plunder then political power will be far less damaging to the nation and its people.
 
I'm advocating for more equal access to influence. Bigger pockets shouldn't justify a greater access.

Should the individuals who pay the majority of the bills have more, equal, or less influence that someone who receives the benefits without paying for them?
 
We are arguing in circles but that's not my fault.

The study I posted demonstrates that there is no evidence that campaign donations buys the politician's votes on legislation (a claim frequently made but unsupportable).

Of course I explained why that's misleading, but you ignored that point. It says that PAC donations don't affect the overall score by five ideological groups. It doesn't even examine whether, say, donations from an insurance PAC affect a key vote affecting the insurance industry.

The fact that campaign donations DO help a candidate pay their bills on the campaign trail isn't a problem. That's just you and me and everyone else supporting the candidates that we think will best represent our own interests. That is, however, NOT buying influence. The fact that you're helping the guy YOU want to get elected by donating to his campaign (or taking out ads asking people to vote for him) doesn't "buy you influence". The candidate is going to vote on legislation however he votes on legislation (and unless you are a fool, you should know where he'll stand if you're going to support him.)

And if the money doesn't buy "influence" then what does it buy? The election of person who reliably votes according to your interests, apparently. I just see those as distinctions without a meaningful difference. Look what happened in Kansas - a few GOPers voted against the tax cuts. What happened? Koch and other interests poured tons of money into those races and unseated all those moderate GOPers. You're trying to tell me that spending doesn't buy influence. It's naive, and ludicrous. Of course it buys influence - it's a hammer over the head of anyone in Kansas who takes a position opposite AFP.

There is no "return on investment". You don't even know if your guy will get elected. You just pony up your donations to help the guy that YOU want to get elected. There's nothing at all nefarious about that.

Yeah, and you never know if your investment in equipment will pay off. So what?

If you want to dispute the facts or the reasoning of that paper, go ahead and give it your best shot. Provide evidence that contradicts it and we'll see what you've got and how much weight to give it vs. the facts and analysis we see in that study.

I already have challenged your interpretation of the paper.

I know it just chaffs you something awful that free speech was supported by the Supreme Court via the Citizens United decision, but the decision was right and you might as well just get used to it. Screeching that "campaign donations buy votes" doesn't make it true and it isn't going to reverse Citizens United. You might as well get used to the fact that free speech applies to everyone and not just to those people and groups you support and like.

Of course, I don't support the billionaires on my side becoming king makers either. It's a recipe for plutocracy - dueling billionaires. I guess if you're right, might as well get used to that.
 
Do you believe that the rich ought to pay of a percentage of their wealth to fund government programs intended to transfer wealth to government workers and "the poor"? If so you just might be a Marxist.
Do you believe that some should rule over the many because the many must be led (the dictatorship of the protes)?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that the productive steal from the poor?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that capitalism must be weakened or even destroyed for equality's sake?
If so you just might be a Marxist.

Do you believe that the government must dominate and control everything for the sake of fairness?
If so you just might be a neo-Marxist.

I see someone is a fan of bad comedy.
 
Authoritarian government being bad doesn't mean that excessive wealth, and the excessive influence it buys, isn't bad as well.

In a capitalist system, where people have a right to accumulate capital, whats excessive? There should be no such thing.
 
Of course I explained why that's misleading, but you ignored that point. It says that PAC donations don't affect the overall score by five ideological groups. It doesn't even examine whether, say, donations from an insurance PAC affect a key vote affecting the insurance industry.



And if the money doesn't buy "influence" then what does it buy? The election of person who reliably votes according to your interests, apparently. I just see those as distinctions without a meaningful difference. Look what happened in Kansas - a few GOPers voted against the tax cuts. What happened? Koch and other interests poured tons of money into those races and unseated all those moderate GOPers. You're trying to tell me that spending doesn't buy influence. It's naive, and ludicrous. Of course it buys influence - it's a hammer over the head of anyone in Kansas who takes a position opposite AFP.



Yeah, and you never know if your investment in equipment will pay off. So what?



I already have challenged your interpretation of the paper.



Of course, I don't support the billionaires on my side becoming king makers either. It's a recipe for plutocracy - dueling billionaires. I guess if you're right, might as well get used to that.

You are being intentionally obtuse. Campaign donations don't actually "buy" anything outright for you. Maybe you could say they "buy" you a feeling of participation but to argue that they really must be buying political favors just because you know they must buy political favors is circular logic and I'm tired of pointing that out.
 
Authoritarian government being bad doesn't mean that excessive wealth, and the excessive influence it buys, isn't bad as well.

What amount of wealth is excessive?
 
You are being intentionally obtuse. Campaign donations don't actually "buy" anything outright for you.

LOL, it's not me being intentionally obtuse. If campaign donations don't "buy" anything, then why do special interests spend (in the case of Wall Street and healthcare) $billions in the system? Each spent more than $6 billion lobbying since 1998, and that's just part of the spending. They're not irrational, or stupid, and if that money doesn't accomplish anything, why bother? Shouldn't shareholders demand that GE do something more productive with its money than spend $315 million since 1998 on lobbying? After all that money doesn't "buy" anything...:roll:

Maybe you could say they "buy" you a feeling of participation but to argue that they really must be buying political favors just because you know they must buy political favors is circular logic and I'm tired of pointing that out.

It's not a "feeling of participation" they're obtaining, it's results. The companies and industries know it, you know it. And you ignore my comments, then address straw man like that above, so there's really no point to this debate. You're apparently determined to miss the point.
 
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