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Thread: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

  1. #141
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    LOL. Conservatives certainly have much to learn about the impressive effort of Progressives and the propaganda machine they have created to spread their ideological agenda.

    That's why at the end of the day I don't have a problem with Citizens United, or spending on any level. The more the merrier. It's a good stimulus, and a whole bunch of people get employed, and businesses get a big influx of dollars.
    I still believe that we could certainly do far more good for far more people if we stimulated different parts of the economy than muckrakers, pundits, and professional spin artists.
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    To what do you base your estimate on lobbists? Please provide proof that you're even remotely in the ball park. Also, please provide the basis for their lobbying efforts. Do you think the SEIU is lobbying for business interests? How about the AFL-CIO? A cursory review of the White House guest log indicates your estimates are not very accurate. I would suspect the same holds true on Capitol Hill.
    OK, here's a list of top spending by lobbyists. You tell me who dominates this list?

    https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

    Here's another list - labor is ranked 12 of the top 13.

    https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/to...e=c&showYear=a

    According to this, lobbying totaled $3,200 million in 2014.


    The fact of the matter is that this spending would be very difficult to regulate. While I can bitch about the offensive nature of the Annenberg Learner program being used in public education, it's up to the parents to stop such efforts by these groups. I think they are too disinterested to do so, and appear in many states to be willing to turn the parenting over to the government.

    So, that being the case, let the money flow. It's not just from billionaires, as your meme suggests, it's from all directions. They are not putting the money in a pile and burning it, they are spending it on ways they think will influence people towards support of their cause. Even the losers see their money being spent, so what's to worry about?
    I've said what's to worry about - a political system that answers only to the Fortune 500 and the CEO class. I guess that doesn't worry you, but it does me.

    Frankly, if you tracked ALL the money, Liberal/Progressives should be quiet about reform, since they are way ahead of the game.
    Yeah, well, I think that's delusional. If you look at the big money going to democrats, it's from the same business interests hedging their bets. Wall Street, healthcare, etc. We were talking about healthcare on another thread and the person the Democrat Baucus hired to write the ACA was a Wellpoint VP.
    Last edited by JasperL; 01-27-15 at 03:16 PM.

  3. #143
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I still believe that we could certainly do far more good for far more people if we stimulated different parts of the economy than muckrakers, pundits, and professional spin artists.
    I certainly agree. However, it seems to get there, we need muckrakers, pundits, and professional spin artists. I can be informed, and you can be informed, but we are rare birds. The rest might have a hard time identifying Florida on a map, so the circus continues.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Out of curiosity, if someone really liked "Brand X" peanut butter and decided to initiate a campaign to get more people to like the brand would you have a problem with that? What if they spent $900M to get you to change from "Brand Y" to their preferred brand?
    My issue with that would be the fact that we have a system which allows so much money to be accumulated in the hands of the few, extracted off the hard work of the many.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
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    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, here's a list of top spending by lobbyists. You tell me who dominates this list?

    https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

    Here's another list - labor is ranked 12 of the top 13.

    https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/to...e=c&showYear=a

    According to this, lobbying totaled $3,200 million in 2014.




    I've said what's to worry about - a political system that answers only to the Fortune 500 and the CEO class. I guess that doesn't worry you, but it does me.



    Yeah, well, I think that's delusional. If you look at the big money going to democrats, it's from the same business interests hedging their bets. Wall Street, healthcare, etc. We were talking about healthcare on another thread and the person the Democrat Baucus hired to write the ACA was a Wellpoint VP.
    Again, I'm not sure where you're headed. You appear to be assigning intent based on the name of a organization or group, rather than looking at the actual causes and messages they are lobbying for. The USCC has been pushing for immigration reform. Isn't that lobbying for the poor and disenfranchised?

    I've written that I think there should be a free for all when it comes to money because I see no workable solution that curtails it's influence. Cut it way back and restrict spending used to influence political agenda's, and then they get into our nations schools and spread their propaganda another way, just as the progressive Annenberg Foundation has done.

    If you've got a better idea how to do it, I'd be interested to read about it.

  6. #146
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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    You know, I don't recall the NY Times ever doing any similar stories about George Soros when he was the multi-million dollar sugar daddy for the democrats during the Bush Administration, does anyone else? As a matter of fact, Soros still to this day pours millions and millions into democratic political organisations, so I wonder when we'll be seeing the times story on him?

    The phrases "Fat chance" and "When hell freezes over" for some odd reason just popped into my head.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    My issue with that would be the fact that we have a system which allows so much money to be accumulated in the hands of the few, extracted off the hard work of the many.
    It's not "extracted" from anyone. That term implies theft or some type of coercion.

    The right of the people - ALL of the people - to profit from their labor, their wit, their wisdom and whatever other LEGAL means they use should NEVER be infringed upon. Furthermore, just because I make a million dollars in no way, shape or forms means that you are somehow prevented from doing the same.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    You know, I don't recall the NY Times ever doing any similar stories about George Soros when he was the multi-million dollar sugar daddy for the democrats during the Bush Administration, does anyone else?.
    Maybe it's because you don't read the NYT.

    http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...ros/index.html

    You should. You might learn something.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Maybe it's because you don't read the NYT.

    George Soros News - The New York Times

    You should. You might learn something.
    You should read the articles. You wouldn't look so foolish if you had.

    There is certainly no similarity between the Koch Brothers expose, and those you've identified, which was the point of the post you responded to.

    I would not expect there to be any similarity from the ubber liberal NY Times, but dang 3G, you're going to need some bleach to clean this one off.

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    Re: Kochs Plan to Spend $900 Million on 2016 Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Again, I'm not sure where you're headed. You appear to be assigning intent based on the name of a organization or group, rather than looking at the actual causes and messages they are lobbying for. The USCC has been pushing for immigration reform. Isn't that lobbying for the poor and disenfranchised?
    Of course it's not - it's lobbying for low cost, disposable labor, which will effectively drive down wages across the scale. And it makes my point - any alignment of interests between the poor (to the extent there is one on immigration and that's doubtful) and the Fortune 500 is merely coincidental.

    I've written that I think there should be a free for all when it comes to money because I see no workable solution that curtails it's influence. Cut it way back and restrict spending used to influence political agenda's, and then they get into our nations schools and spread their propaganda another way, just as the progressive Annenberg Foundation has done.

    If you've got a better idea how to do it, I'd be interested to read about it.
    I'm really not sure why you have to make the issue so partisan. Take any big state and there are conservative influences on what goes into the textbooks.

    And any start has to be to get back to limits on political spending, public financing, greater sunlight on political donors, available in real time, etc. There is no ONE solution, but the road we're on is, IMO, a guarantee of plutocracy - selling our legislators to the highest bidder. Not just legislators - the judiciary as well.

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