• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

EMNofSeattle said:
The thing is all the Cuban families who owned the plantations fled to the Dominican Republic with their best workers. So really the Dominican cigars are what the Cubans were. I may have had a cigar from a certain country you mentioned in a nonspecific country to our north.

It was ok but not stellar
Click to expand...

I have to admit, my ex girlfriend and her family were Cuban, so Ive had plenty. Also had em when visiting mexico. They are ok, nothing great compared to some of the stuff out there now. For a while I even had a humidor. :lol:
 
Of course they are leaving the talks..are people really that naive?

Why on Earth would the Communist government want full and open relations with America when the embargo has kept them in power for so long? The same goes for North Korea, btw...even more so.

They will NEVER agree to open relations until their people are literally threatening to boot them out if they don't.

What Obama should have done was just end the embargo and declare relations with Cuba as normal. No negotiations..just state it and watch the Cuban government collapse after a few months.
 
DA60 said:
Of course they are leaving the talks..are people really that naive?

Why on Earth would the Communist government want full and open relations with America when the embargo has kept them in power for so long? The same goes for North Korea, btw...even more so.

They will NEVER agree to open relations until their people are literally threatening to boot them out if they don't.

What Obama should have done was just end the embargo and declare relations with Cuba as normal. No negotiations..just state it and watch the Cuban government collapse after a few months.
Click to expand...

Wow. :doh
 
US Conservative said:
Lolz that was funny. :lol:
Click to expand...


Cuba owes us the same treatment that we gave the American Indian. We raped, pillaged,
burned and conquered and then allowed the original governing group, the American Indian
small plots of land for themselves. Cuba kicked the USA out and allowed them a small plot
to lease at Guantanamo. Fair is fair. The Cubans have treated us as well as we treated the
defeated Indians. So why would the Cubans owe the USA anything? The precedent established
by the USA treatment of the American Indian gives absolute legal high ground to the Cubans.
Tit for Tat, don't ya' know?
 
DaveFagan said:
Cuba owes us the same treatment that we gave the American Indian. We raped, pillaged,
burned and conquered and then allowed the original governing group, the American Indian
small plots of land for themselves. Cuba kicked the USA out and allowed them a small plot
to lease at Guantanamo. Fair is fair. The Cubans have treated us as well as we treated the
defeated Indians. So why would the Cubans owe the USA anything? The precedent established
by the USA treatment of the American Indian gives absolute legal high ground to the Cubans.
Tit for Tat, don't ya' know?
Click to expand...

Sorry I dont go for your bizarre delusions or sense of social justice.
 
sawdust said:
Obama gave away the only power the embargo had. The embargo was never meant to improve the status of the Cuban people. It was intended to oppose totalitarianism by the Castro regime and keep pressure on Russia make Cuba a financial burden on them. I personally favor improved relations with Cuba but only if the Cuban government agrees to changes in it's governance which will make it a freer, economically stable and less authoritarian.

The way to do that is to negotiate changes within their country with the way they treat their people. If your first act is to give away all your chips, and you no longer have anything to negotiate with, well, where I come from, that's called just plain stupid.

Obama announced this as a grand foreign policy victory. All it did is embolden the Castro regime and give them the upper hand in negotiations moving forward. It's a foreign policy failure.
Click to expand...

You can't negotiate with people you aren't talking to. You're also not going to get everything all at once. The embargo is a pretty childish when you think about it "You give us what we want, or we're not talking to you." It's like we're being petulant teenagers.

You start the conversation, you start the negotations, you allow our money and culture to start flowing in. Eventually the people will demand the freedoms and opportunities that increased trade brings.
 
US Conservative said:
The average cuban will see none of that money-just like they have not until now from whatever income the nation gets.

The difference is now the corrupt leadership has more money. Thats what Obama is doing.
Click to expand...

So the way to help the people is to cut off trade? How does it help them? Your cartoon asked the question of who is helping the citizens. So who is helping them?
 
Ockham said:
It's an interesting document outlining the provisions for foreign capital, investments, etc... but not ownership. It shows that Cuba is open to outside country investments in Cuba but that isn't indicative of any type of movement away from their current form of government or politics. Was there a section specifically that you thought embodied a governmental shift away from socialism?
Click to expand...

The new law allows private investment in nearly all sectors of the Cuban economy and allows for investment in equity and debt of investments that don't fit the strict definition of foreign direct investment. It also for the first time allows 100% foreign ownership ("totally foreign capital companies") and reduces taxes enormously. The bill fundamentally changes the landscape of foreign/domestic private investment in Cuba.
 
rocket88 said:
You can't negotiate with people you aren't talking to. You're also not going to get everything all at once. The embargo is a pretty childish when you think about it "You give us what we want, or we're not talking to you." It's like we're being petulant teenagers.

You start the conversation, you start the negotations, you allow our money and culture to start flowing in. Eventually the people will demand the freedoms and opportunities that increased trade brings.
Click to expand...

Exactly right. Talk to them but don't give up your leverage prior to the discussion. Any fool knows that. The way the administration did it, Cuba got a lot for very little. They released a few political prisoners and sent an American they had held in captivity home and in turn got trade concessions worth billions. It's almost as bad as trading five of the worlds most dangerous terrorists for a deserter.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
The new law allows private investment in nearly all sectors of the Cuban economy and allows for investment in equity and debt of investments that don't fit the strict definition of foreign direct investment. It also for the first time allows 100% foreign ownership ("totally foreign capital companies") and reduces taxes enormously. The bill fundamentally changes the landscape of foreign/domestic private investment in Cuba.
Click to expand...

I didn't see anything about ownership actually - what section describes 100% ownership?

And I'll grant you that yes, it's very interesting that Cuba is allowing investments but that doesn't tell me they are moving away from Socialism or doing anything about their horrible human rights issues. It does tell me that they may be very desperate financially. Again... please show me what section of the document stated full ownership by foreigners... I may have missed it.
 
sawdust said:
Exactly right. Talk to them but don't give up your leverage prior to the discussion. Any fool knows that. The way the administration did it, Cuba got a lot for very little. They released a few political prisoners and sent an American they had held in captivity home and in turn got trade concessions worth billions. It's almost as bad as trading five of the worlds most dangerous terrorists for a deserter.
Click to expand...

Trade with Cuba was very profitable for American companies before the revolution. The potential for that is still there. American companies will benefit, potentially creating more jobs through which we'll all benefit.
 
rocket88 said:
So the way to help the people is to cut off trade? How does it help them? Your cartoon asked the question of who is helping the citizens. So who is helping them?
Click to expand...

Nobody is helping them-thats how it works under marxist dictatorships. Trade is only going to the ruling class-and they have already said they aren't making any changes.
 
sawdust said:
Exactly right. Talk to them but don't give up your leverage prior to the discussion. Any fool knows that. The way the administration did it, Cuba got a lot for very little. They released a few political prisoners and sent an American they had held in captivity home and in turn got trade concessions worth billions. It's almost as bad as trading five of the worlds most dangerous terrorists for a deserter.
Click to expand...

Apparently Obama likes making **** deals.
 
Ockham said:
I didn't see anything about ownership actually - what section describes 100% ownership?
Click to expand...

The entire concept of totally foreign capital companies and the rights granted therein:

"(g) Totally Foreign Capital Company: commercial entity with foreign capital without the involvement of any national investor or natural person with foreign capital."

National Investors can privately own portions of private joint ventures and international economic association agreements:

"(m) National Investor: a Cuban juridical person domiciled in the national territory of Cuba which participates as a shareholder in a joint venture, or is a party to an international economic association agreement."

And I'll grant you that yes, it's very interesting that Cuba is allowing investments but that doesn't tell me they are moving away from Socialism or doing anything about their horrible human rights issues. It does tell me that they may be very desperate financially. Again... please show me what section of the document stated full ownership by foreigners... I may have missed it.
Click to expand...

Privatizing the economy is a big step towards the dismantling of this system.
 
rocket88 said:
You can't negotiate with people you aren't talking to. You're also not going to get everything all at once. The embargo is a pretty childish when you think about it "You give us what we want, or we're not talking to you." It's like we're being petulant teenagers.

You start the conversation, you start the negotations, you allow our money and culture to start flowing in. Eventually the people will demand the freedoms and opportunities that increased trade brings.
Click to expand...

Give us what we want? What are you suggesting that we wanted? The embargo was enacted due to Cuba's hostility towards the west and their poor treatment of their own people. And the Castros only cared about the embargo once the Soviet Union collapsed and that turd in Venezuela (Hugo Chevez) died. Now they have run out of authoritarian sugar daddies. Now as a last resort they want us to prop them up with commerce and tourist dollars.
 
rocket88 said:
So the way to help the people is to cut off trade? How does it help them? Your cartoon asked the question of who is helping the citizens. So who is helping them?
Click to expand...

Certainly not the communist system that Cuba and the left touted for so long. That's why they suddenly want trade and tourist dollars.
 
ObamacareFail said:
Give us what we want? What are you suggesting that we wanted? The embargo was enacted due to Cuba's hostility towards the west and their poor treatment of their own people. And the Castros only cared about the embargo once the Soviet Union collapsed and that turd in Venezuela (Hugo Chevez) died. Now they have run out of authoritarian sugar daddies. Now as a last resort they want us to prop them up with commerce and tourist dollars.
Click to expand...

This is clever that little Cuba is playing hardball with us, but what a quandary they are in. Do they need our money bad enough to back down, or will we be the ones to fold, and how would we spin it??
 
rocket88 said:
Trade with Cuba was very profitable for American companies before the revolution. The potential for that is still there. American companies will benefit, potentially creating more jobs through which we'll all benefit.
Click to expand...

and don't forget the real important part.

trade will continue to prop up the oppressive Castro regime.... which I'm beginning to think is the goal.
 
US Conservative said:
So lifting the embargo, to give Cuba what they want while getting nothing in return makes us "look" less weak to Cuba?
Is this your premise?
Click to expand...

You think an embargo which no one is willing to participate in but us and which has been easily bypassed by Cuba from day one makes us look strong?
 
US Conservative said:
Nobody is helping them-thats how it works under marxist dictatorships. Trade is only going to the ruling class-and they have already said they aren't making any changes.
Click to expand...

Communism isn't helping them and the embargo hasn't made so much as a dent in it. A different strategy may be in order.
 
Napoleon said:
You think an embargo which no one is willing to participate in but us and which has been easily bypassed by Cuba from day one makes us look strong?
Click to expand...

I noticed you didn't answer the question. In any case, this makes us look worse. The left isn't about victory or accomplishment-its about feeling better about failure.
 
rocket88 said:
Communism isn't helping them and the embargo hasn't made so much as a dent in it. A different strategy may be in order.
Click to expand...

Thats like a firefighter not being able to put out a fire with water, and then switching to gasoline to try a different strategy.

This is an idiotic statement-a different strategy that is even worse isn't the answer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom