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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

Cuba is beginning to dismantle its socialist system but it won't happen overnight. Cuban bureaucrats face the same problems Russian bureaucrats did when they dismantled the USSR, how to create a new Cuban bourgeoisie. It will be a long, patient degradation as private investment is allowed in and government assets are privatized, but it's pretty inevitable given how they have been running the country.
 
Lursa said:
It's their business what freedoms they give their citizens. Not up to us. We dont dictate to China or Saudi Arabia, for ex, how to treat their citizens. We huff and puff but do little of substance. Our attempts at changes to human rights have taken years and have made no inroads in SA.

that doesnt mean I like the system in Cuba, just that it's hypocritical to consider it our business, both in general and there specifically.
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Well I think we made it our business by reopening relation with them. China is a major world manufacturer, Saudi Arabia is the largest producer of oil in the world. Cuba produces what exactly that we want? So we in the embargo by trading three people including one of their citizens convicted of murder, in exchange for reopening relations, which we don't benefit from at all.

This was a stupid deal all around. Not only that but the Cubans of been committing acts of war against us for the past 20 years and have gotten away with it. Why I will never be president, if I won in 2016 I'd undo this mess by sitting little Raul down and telling him the rough riders are coming back up San Juan hill if he doesn't play ball...
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well I think we made it our business by reopening relation with them. China is a major world manufacturer, Saudi Arabia is the largest producer of oil in the world. Cuba produces what exactly that we want? So we in the embargo by trading three people including one of their citizens convicted of murder, in exchange for reopening relations, which we don't benefit from at all.

This was a stupid deal all around. Not only that but the Cubans of been committing acts of war against us for the past 20 years and have gotten away with it. Why I will never be president, if I won in 2016 I'd undo this mess by sitting little Raul down and telling him the rough riders are coming back up San Juan hill if he doesn't play ball...
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What the hell are you so scared of?

Cuba is roughly the size of what....Pennsylvania?
 
Dragonfly said:
What the hell are you so scared of?

Cuba is roughly the size of what....Pennsylvania?
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I'm not scared of anything. Except declining national respect based on the fact that it seems the last eight years are diplomacy has been based on giving with no receiving. Cuba had nothing that we need, in exchange for legitimizing the Castro regime, receive nothing, and we handed them back several Cuban spies including a guy who was involved in the downing of the US aircraft piloted by US citizens in international airspace by Cuban fighter jets. We should have demanded substantial change in Cuban political structures as a condition of reopening relations and insisted they do it in advance. Stupid move all the way around
 
Dragonfly said:
What the hell are you so scared of?

Cuba is roughly the size of what....Pennsylvania?
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That does not answer the question-HOW do we benefit from this deal? By enriching dictators?
The Cuban people will see not a dime, and just by the fact that Cuba isn't playing ball but rather seeking to extract more from a weak president-we see how they want to play.
 
Hatuey said:
As someone who has been to Cuba in the last ...oh... year, this doesn't await any tourist. As with tourists who visit the US (or for that matter any country), tourists who visit Cuba are kept away from the realities of the country's poor. I mean, I've been to Playa del Carmen (in Mexico) and stayed at this hotel (The Reina Roja):

3018288_73_z.jpg


50% of the state looks like this:

cancun-poverty-1.jpg
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Really? How about vacationing in Haiti or the Dominican Republic? DR isnt as bad but I've vacationed all over the Caribbean, Mexico, and there is abject poverty and abuse all over. And their tourist boards try to keep it just as hidden.

So singling out Cuba for that reason is hypocritical.
 
Lursa said:
Really? How about vacationing in Haiti or the Dominican Republic? DR isnt as bad but I've vacationed all over the Caribbean, Mexico, and there is abject poverty and abuse all over. And their tourist boards try to keep it just as hidden.

So singling out Cuba for that reason is hypocritical.
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Uh...West Virginia anyone....???????
 
US Conservative said:
That does not answer the question-HOW do we benefit from this deal? By enriching dictators?
The Cuban people will see not a dime, and just by the fact that Cuba isn't playing ball but rather seeking to extract more from a weak president-we see how they want to play.
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Since when do you give a rat's rectum about the Cuban people?

Are the people of Mexico benefiting from tourism to Puerto Vallarta????
 
US Conservative said:
What do you mean of course it will fix their situation? When Cuba gets more money (through its state owned business) who gets the money-the govt or the people? Plenty of western nations do business there now and its a crap hole. How would more money change that?

The only thing it does it allow the leadership to improve its security. Let me guess, you thought the "fair and equitable" commies were going to hand it out to the people of Cuba?

All communism does is make everyone equally poor and miserable (excepting the elites). And Obama is helping to do exactly that.
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All speculation. Look at China....they have gotten more personal liberties over time as we became more involved with them economically. So I dont know either but I'll look at the real track records.

And again, it's not our business to tell other countries what form of govt they MUST have. With more open doors, at least we can be involved with human rights.

But looking at Iraq, as an example, we have no idea how to actually 'bring democracy' anywhere and we dont really care. We just want stability and an economic relationship in our own best interests. And Cuba is stable anyway, not like Iraq, and let's face it, anything we do is in our own best interests.
 
Lovebug said:
That's right. We fuzz about some but not the other. What gives? I never understood why Cuba has been singled out.
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Pawn of the USSR, very strategically placed. If it hadnt been, that regime wouldnt have survived it's first decades.
 
Lursa said:
Really? How about vacationing in Haiti or the Dominican Republic? DR isnt as bad but I've vacationed all over the Caribbean, Mexico, and there is abject poverty and abuse all over. And their tourist boards try to keep it just as hidden.

So singling out Cuba for that reason is hypocritical.
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Ummm... I didn't single out anything. I made the same exact point you made. Reading comprehension is really important here.
 
Dragonfly said:
Christ....why two threads on the same topic..... :roll:
There's nothing more insanely stupid, and hugely embarrassing then the US-Cuba relations over the past multiple decades.

Regardless of which nincompoop is in the WH, our childish and hypocritical stance with Cuba speaks volumes about our policies.

Ending the embargo, opening up trade, and dropping this truly childish behavior would show maturity and intelligence. So I don't expect the USofA to do any such thing any time soon.

I would like to be pleasantly surprised though. Any president (regardless of party affiliation) that ends this foolishness will get a firm nod of approval from me.
Cut n paste:
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And it's also rather an embarrassment that we've allowed that tiny, economically-challenged country call the shots for decades. Now we can look like we're taking the High Ground. If the Castros play ball, they can benefit from (use) that good will with their own people.
 
US Conservative said:
You must think Cuba is what you see in postcards.
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Haiti has some pretty postcards too and it's been the poorest nation in the western hemisphere for a decade or 2.
 
Lovebug said:
Have you ever been to KY?
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When I was a teen, we went on a Christian mission there with our church....so yes, you're right.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well I think we made it our business by reopening relation with them. China is a major world manufacturer, Saudi Arabia is the largest producer of oil in the world. Cuba produces what exactly that we want? So we in the embargo by trading three people including one of their citizens convicted of murder, in exchange for reopening relations, which we don't benefit from at all.

This was a stupid deal all around. Not only that but the Cubans of been committing acts of war against us for the past 20 years and have gotten away with it. Why I will never be president, if I won in 2016 I'd undo this mess by sitting little Raul down and telling him the rough riders are coming back up San Juan hill if he doesn't play ball...
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Opening foreign relations with a country is not the same as telling them what govt to have or demand they give their people more freedom.

We didnt do that with China. And we dont do it with Saudi Arabia.

And the rest of your post is too silly to consider. It seems like we should invade....:doh
 
Hatuey said:
Ummm... I didn't single out anything. I made the same exact point you made. Reading comprehension is really important here.
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Sorry, must have been distracted by the huge pics breaking up the post.
Apologies.
 
US Conservative said:
Since always. They are a beautiful people, oppressed by communism and now Obama.
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Weren't they also "oppressed" by Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr.????

They'd be far less oppressed if the embargo was lifted, and if trade and travel restrictions with the US were open to all.
 
Lursa said:
Opening foreign relations with a country is not the same as telling them what govt to have or demand they give their people more freedom.

We didnt do that with China. And we dont do it with Saudi Arabia.

And the rest of your post is too silly to consider. It seems like we should invade....:doh
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We weren't embargoing China. We are with Cuba. Continue that until the government changes. Otherwise there is no need to go through any of this bother, Cuba has nothing for us that we need.
 
clownboy said:
We weren't embargoing China. We are with Cuba. Continue that until the government changes. Otherwise there is no need to go through any of this bother, Cuba has nothing for us that we need.
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Again - why so much fear????

And what's with this "need" crap???

How about just not being hypocritical douchebags?
 
Dragonfly said:
Again - why so much fear????

And what's with this "need" crap???

How about just not being hypocritical douchebags?
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Why this great need for relations with Cuba in the first place? Need is important because we're talking foreign relations, not second grade play horsey. Let the embargo continue until Cuba changes it's government.
 
clownboy said:
Why this great need for relations with Cuba in the first place? Need is important because we're talking foreign relations, not second grade play horsey. Let the embargo continue until Cuba changes it's government.
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I think we need relations with Cuba based on proximity to our borders alone. Not to mention our Cuban immigrants.
 
clownboy said:
Why this great need for relations with Cuba in the first place? Need is important because we're talking foreign relations, not second grade play horsey. Let the embargo continue until Cuba changes it's government.
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LOL Because that has worked so well for the last 50 yrs.
 
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