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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

US Conservative said:
I noticed you didn't answer the question. In any case, this makes us look worse. The left isn't about victory or accomplishment-its about feeling better about failure.
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What "victory" or "accomplishment" have sanctions and the embargo yielded other than making us look petty and foolish and driving Cuba to snuggle up to China and Venezuela? If you have no reasonable alternative to diplomacy to offer then sit down, shut up, and let the scenario play out. Being a crybaby over some minor diplomatic relations isn't going to bring down the Castro regime either.
 
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Napoleon said:
What "victory" or "accomplishment" have sanctions and the embargo yielded other than making us look petty and foolish and driving Cuba to snuggle up to China and Venezuela? If you have no reasonable alternative to diplomacy to offer then sit down, shut up, and let the scenario play out. Being a crybaby over some minor diplomatic relations isn't going to bring down the Castro regime either.
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What victory or accomplishment has Obama change in policy yielded? Why dont you extend this logic to the war on poverty.
 
US Conservative said:
What victory or accomplishment has Obama change in policy yielded?
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Diplomacy rarely achieves 100% of the results either side wants and never achieves them overnight.

US Conservative said:
Why dont you extend this logic to the war on poverty.
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Because this thread is about Cuba. Start another if you want to talk about the war on poverty.
 
US Conservative said:
Thats like a firefighter not being able to put out a fire with water, and then switching to gasoline to try a different strategy.

This is an idiotic statement-a different strategy that is even worse isn't the answer.
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So instead we should fight a fire by ignoring it and hoping for the best. Right.

What is your answer for helping the people of Cuba since you have such concern for them? The embargo hasn't helped them.
 
rocket88 said:
So instead we should fight a fire by ignoring it and hoping for the best. Right.

What is your answer for helping the people of Cuba since you have such concern for them? The embargo hasn't helped them.
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The same thing we did in East Germany and the USSR-hasten the demise of that govt. :2wave:

Note that what Obama has done is the exact opposite of this.
 
US Conservative said:
The same thing we did in East Germany and the USSR-hasten the demise of that govt. :2wave:

Note that what Obama has done is the exact opposite of this.
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We had diplomatic relations with both East Germany and the USSR. You are proposing the exact opposite.
 
US Conservative said:
Thats not the point, you asked what I would do to help the people of Cuba.
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It is the point. We traded with those nations, had diplomatic relations with them. Eventually, things changed there.

So you would have diplomatic relations and trade, the same things we did with the USSR. But Obama is stupid for doing that?
 
rocket88 said:
It is the point. We traded with those nations, had diplomatic relations with them. Eventually, things changed there.

So you would have diplomatic relations and trade, the same things we did with the USSR. But Obama is stupid for doing that?
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We didn't exactly have prolific trade with either-but we used other techniques-like increasing oil production to cut income in the USSR, as well as forcing them to increase military spending.

With Cuba, they have no oil (in fact once the USSR went under its interesting how the cubans had to adapt to that), and they couldn't spend much on their military even if they wanted to.

So we stopped trading with them. Thats what happens when you nearly plunge the world (commies too) into nuclear war.
 
US Conservative said:
We didn't exactly have prolific trade with either-but we used other techniques-like increasing oil production to cut income in the USSR, as well as forcing them to increase military spending.

With Cuba, they have no oil (in fact once the USSR went under its interesting how the cubans had to adapt to that), and they couldn't spend much on their military even if they wanted to.

So we stopped trading with them. Thats what happens when you nearly plunge the world (commies too) into nuclear war.
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So we stopped trading with them thinking it would change things, and guess what? It hasn't. We gave it 55 years, how long are you thinking we should give it?
 
rocket88 said:
So we stopped trading with them thinking it would change things, and guess what? It hasn't. We gave it 55 years, how long are you thinking we should give it?
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I dont think that was the thought-remember other nations have continued to trade with them. Its more that we aren't going to help a corrupt commie regime. And what Obama has introduced does exactly that.

He's helping exactly who he should not be helping-and the average Cuban is now even more entrenched in a commie dictatorship.
 
US Conservative said:
The same thing we did in East Germany and the USSR-hasten the demise of that govt. :2wave:

Note that what Obama has done is the exact opposite of this.
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Damn good plan.....


Coupled with a restorative plan, it might work. The Berlin Wall came down because of American blue jeans, rock and roll and Playboy magazine.

The US has created resentment in the people, I have listened to them. They do not understand at all why they are punished for something over which they have no control, the actions of an unelected government. When Kennedy invoked them, it was to save face, without any regard for the consequences to the people, while the US was still aiding and rebuilding Japan and Germany.

The hearts and the minds of a nation are what needs winning, not ego battles and heavy artillery. Poland's Solidarity could not have gone anywhere without the Polish people behind them, and they followed because they wanted ****ing tractor parts, blue jeans, and better Vodka.

Having been to Cuba, having compared it to other Caribbean islands, it is the same here. Let in some ****ing blue jeans, baseball uniforms, cleats and bats along with some auto parts and Raul won't last long.

Obama, as usual, is blowing smoke, he has no clear agenda other than what he can mis-represent to the American people, with an agenda that has so far only angered the country's leadership. Based on history, from Vietnam to Iraq, I am certain the White House doesn't know the first ****ing thing about the needs of the people....they are functioning on the needs of the White House.

When you win their hearts and minds, their asses and pocketbooks are soon to follow.

And start paying ****ing rent on Gitmo....
 
Fearandloathing said:
Damn good plan.....


Coupled with a restorative plan, it might work. The Berlin Wall came down because of American blue jeans, rock and roll and Playboy magazine.

The US has created resentment in the people, I have listened to them. They do not understand at all why they are punished for something over which they have no control, the actions of an unelected government. When Kennedy invoked them, it was to save face, without any regard for the consequences to the people, while the US was still aiding and rebuilding Japan and Germany.

The hearts and the minds of a nation are what needs winning, not ego battles and heavy artillery. Poland's Solidarity could not have gone anywhere without the Polish people behind them, and they followed because they wanted ****ing tractor parts, blue jeans, and better Vodka.

Having been to Cuba, having compared it to other Caribbean islands, it is the same here. Let in some ****ing blue jeans, baseball uniforms, cleats and bats along with some auto parts and Raul won't last long.

Obama, as usual, is blowing smoke, he has no clear agenda other than what he can mis-represent to the American people, with an agenda that has so far only angered the country's leadership. Based on history, from Vietnam to Iraq, I am certain the White House doesn't know the first ****ing thing about the needs of the people....they are functioning on the needs of the White House.

When you win their hearts and minds, their asses and pocketbooks are soon to follow.

And start paying ****ing rent on Gitmo....
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I agree, but you don't win hearts and minds if you're not talking.
 
rocket88 said:
I agree, but you don't win hearts and minds if you're not talking.
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????

When did Reagan talk with Russia about Poland?

You just don't get it.

Anything Obama does has to be defended even though there is NO historical precedent....?

Look, the whole Cuba policy has been a ****ing nightmare from the beginning. The US is in violation of international law on the embargo and the "occupational force" at Gitmo.

You DO NOT have the moral high ground.
 
US Conservative said:
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago
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Cuba has been embargoed by the US for 50 years, but they trade with most other nations. They have lots of tourists and foreign investment, but it has not improved the lot of ordinary cubans a bit. I don't know why the administration thinks that Cuba is going to change just because we drop the embargo. The cuban government doesn't let citizens do their own deals with foreigners.
 
LowDown said:
Cuba has been embargoed by the US for 50 years, but they trade with most other nations. They have lots of tourists and foreign investment, but it has not improved the lot of ordinary cubans a bit. I don't know why the administration thinks that Cuba is going to change just because we drop the embargo. The cuban government doesn't let citizens do their own deals with foreigners.
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Exactly! Im still waiting for someone to explain to me how this is a good thing, so far the lefty response seems to be "what we are doing now isn't working".

My next thought is so why do something else that you also know does not work?
 
US Conservative said:
Exactly! Im still waiting for someone to explain to me how this is a good thing, so far the lefty response seems to be "what we are doing now isn't working".

My next thought is so why do something else that you also know does not work?
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On the other hand, the changes that Cuba made over the last two years have been a good start. They loosened up the market for private exchange and abolished their duel currency system in which tourists get one currency and the citizens get another. This opens up the possiblity of trade with foreigners, but so far it's still illegal there to hire cubans without going through the government.
 
Fearandloathing said:
????

When did Reagan talk with Russia about Poland?

You just don't get it.

Anything Obama does has to be defended even though there is NO historical precedent....?

Look, the whole Cuba policy has been a ****ing nightmare from the beginning. The US is in violation of international law on the embargo and the "occupational force" at Gitmo.

You DO NOT have the moral high ground.
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When did Reagan talk with Russia? Are you serious?

Reagan_and_Gorbachev_hold_discussions.jpg
 
US Conservative said:
Exactly! Im still waiting for someone to explain to me how this is a good thing, so far the lefty response seems to be "what we are doing now isn't working". My next thought is so why do something else that you also know does not work?
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Cons have a piss poor concept of why we 'won' the cold war. Not because Reagan spent us into being the biggest debtor nation after being the biggest creditor nation but rather because looser import regulation allowed Russians to see the HUGE consumer goods market they had been denied. Ask Gorbie what told him the end was nigh and it wasn't Star Wars but the personal computer damn near every American home had at least one of.

The other nation's contribution to Cuba's economy is but a drop in the bucket compared to what the USofA's people will pour into their economy. What will turn the tide isn't deals made by Presidents- didn't in the USSR's case, but rather the people seeing what can be gained by abandoning the old system and adopting a new, freer society.

Many opined the regimes of the old Warsaw Pact wouldn't go quietly into history, but not even the Great Wizard of Trickle Down saw the complete collapse of East Germany- not by tanks and blood in the streets but with hand held pick axes and a few beers.

I guess some folks don't understand history or the power of the people to reform government peacefully... looking at the 'from my cold dead hands crowd'.... :peace
 
LowDown said:
On the other hand, the changes that Cuba made over the last two years have been a good start. They loosened up the market for private exchange and abolished their duel currency system in which tourists get one currency and the citizens get another. This opens up the possiblity of trade with foreigners, but so far it's still illegal there to hire cubans without going through the government.
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Yeah they have been doing some good things, like allowing cell phones and international calls, but at the heart of the matter is a communist dictatorship-dictators dont just give up power, and I dont see the Castro's passing on Cuba to someone who isn't a true believer.
 
notquiteright said:
Cons have a piss poor concept of why we 'won' the cold war. Not because Reagan spent us into being the biggest debtor nation after being the biggest creditor nation but rather because looser import regulation allowed Russians to see the HUGE consumer goods market they had been denied. Ask Gorbie what told him the end was nigh and it wasn't Star Wars but the personal computer damn near every American home had at least one of.

The other nation's contribution to Cuba's economy is but a drop in the bucket compared to what the USofA's people will pour into their economy. What will turn the tide isn't deals made by Presidents- didn't in the USSR's case, but rather the people seeing what can be gained by abandoning the old system and adopting a new, freer society.

Many opined the regimes of the old Warsaw Pact wouldn't go quietly into history, but not even the Great Wizard of Trickle Down saw the complete collapse of East Germany- not by tanks and blood in the streets but with hand held pick axes and a few beers.

I guess some folks don't understand history or the power of the people to reform government peacefully... looking at the 'from my cold dead hands crowd'.... :peace
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You "know" history through the rose-colored lenses of a lefty. :2wave:
 
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