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Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

Blue_State said:
In light of evidence and links, your reply is nah uh???
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It really takes some intellectual dishonesty to call other people's arguments bull**** after his very first defense turned out to be a completely fabricated account of events. I mean, this is a person who didn't know that China had been embargoed for 21 years before the US normalized relations. This is a person who doesn't understand that 11 million new customers would be a good economic incentive to normalize relations. This is a person who believe that the embargo shouldn't be lifted until the regime is gone and believes that others are wrong in calling out hypocrisy because oppressive governments have never really been an issue for the US. When you're dealing with a person that devoid of any knowledge on the country they're discussing, it's just easier to watch the events as they unfold and ignore the silly relics of the Cold War.
 
Hatuey said:
How many people there are are is entirely irrelevant to the question. You keep implying there isn't a large enough market for us to bother. You're obviously not a businessman as that is not only absurd, it's absolutely devoid of any truth. The first people to immediately benefit from Cuba opening up to capitalism would be the small business owners in states near Cuba. They'd have access to 11 million brand new customers ripe for picking. That is 11 million new customers who will buy US cellphone companies, food companies, fast food, clothing etc. If you think that is not a "compelling reason", you've obviously never run a business of your own.
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Nonsense as usual. What, they're going to nip across and buy a cheeseburger? Ridiculous. Yes, McDonalds will be able to franchise there. but who benefits? McDonalds and the Cuban government. There is a zero incentive for them to change and very little of the profits will be held (and taxed) here. Of course the Chamber is all onboard for that.
 
US Conservative said:
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago
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I would humbly suggest the best, non biased reporting on this will come from the Canadian Press, an independent co-operative, and the CBC. Both have been following the talks closely. There has been a suggestion that the US sand bagged Cuba, in that the decision to talk held in Canada did not involve "social changes", now being characterized as "freedoms" by the US.

The Obama administration has dedicated significant political capital to rapprochement, but closer ties with the economic giant to the north also could have major importance for Cuba, which saw growth slow sharply in 2014 and is watching with concern as falling oil prices slam Venezuela, which has been a vital source of economic support.
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Cuba has grown despite sanctions by the US, declared illegal by the UN for nearly 50 years. Obama needs the political capital now. Thus Cuba has the advantage, a they can last longer than he can.

The later part of the quote is a red herring, financial commitments from Cuba's supporters are delegated well into the future and Cuba can and will withstand an economic downturn more easily than the US.

I would say we are seeing the rookie Obama again.
 
Blue_State said:
In light of evidence and links, your reply is nah uh???
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I read DemSocialist's links, yours came up as 404. And in reply to the links I read, which are supposedly unbiased think tanks, yes, I call bull****.
 
clownboy said:
Nonsense as usual. What, they're going to nip across and buy a cheeseburger?
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You obviously don't understand how franchises work or for that matter how US entrepreneurs could improve the lives of Cubans by setting up business ventures in a country where the average person makes $15-$25 a month. Again, this is REALLY above your knowledge of how these things work.

Ridiculous. Yes, McDonalds will be able to franchise there. but who benefits? McDonalds and the Cuban government.
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Lmao, utter nonsense. Cuban employees working in Spanish hotels are some of the best paid workers in Cuba. People would rather work for foreign run companies than state controlled companies because of the opportunities which are open to them. Again, this is something you would know if your ignorance of the country wasn't so profoundly obvious.
 
Hatuey said:
It really takes some intellectual dishonesty to call other people's arguments bull**** after his very first defense turned out to be a completely fabricated account of events. I mean, this is a person who didn't know that China had been embargoed for 21 years before the US normalized relations. This is a person who doesn't understand that 11 million new customers would be a good economic incentive to normalize relations. This is a person who believe that the embargo shouldn't be lifted until the regime is gone and believes that others are wrong in calling out hypocrisy because oppressive governments have never really been an issue for the US. When you're dealing with a person that devoid of any knowledge on the country they're discussing, it's just easier to watch the events as they unfold and ignore the silly relics of the Cold War.
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Nice laundry list of mischaracterizations there Hautey. What were you saying again about intellectual dishonesty? :lamo
 
Hatuey said:
It really takes some intellectual dishonesty to call other people's arguments bull**** after his very first defense turned out to be a completely fabricated account of events. I mean, this is a person who didn't know that China had been embargoed for 21 years before the US normalized relations. This is a person who doesn't understand that 11 million new customers would be a good economic incentive to normalize relations. This is a person who believe that the embargo shouldn't be lifted until the regime is gone and believes that others are wrong in calling out hypocrisy because oppressive governments have never really been an issue for the US. When you're dealing with a person that devoid of any knowledge on the country they're discussing, it's just easier to watch the events as they unfold and ignore the silly relics of the Cold War.
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Why not demand a few concessions? I think the embargo is pointless, but it exists and lifting it will be of enormous benefit to Cuba. Why not get something out of it, like basic human rights for the Cuban people? That we haven't pushed oppressive governments in the past is no reason to continue it.
 
Blue_State said:
My point was it takes effort to enforce an embargo. Your response relates our internal political hardships of moving this forward. Not the constant monitoring of imports and exports from right off our shore.
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Ahem...


It isn't being enforced now...

You have Cuba cigars in the US, Cuban rum....

a whole industry exists in Canada selling Cuba cigars to Americans...
 
DaveFagan said:
I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.
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How about rent on Gitmo?
 
clownboy said:
Nice laundry list of mischaracterizations there Hautey. What were you saying again about intellectual dishonesty? :lamo
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Mischaracterizations? Are these not your words? "Cuba does not have a sizeable market we were trying to break into." - "We weren't embargoing China." - "We weren't embargoing China. We are with Cuba. Continue that until the government changes. "? There was nothing mischaracterized. Those are your words.
 
US Conservative said:
HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy. Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.

"One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."

us-restores-diplomatic-relations-cuba-20150125-030131-650.jpg


cont...https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cuba-leaves-talks-us-ties-insisting-wont-major-224809935.html
The Canadian PressBy Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 6 hours ago
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Well, so much for changing Cuba's governing from the 'inside'. Should be noted that for the last 40 some years or more, many western countries have been trading and tourism visited, and it's not made any difference. Rather arrogant to think that the US would have any more luck using this approach than all the other countries that have been actively engaged.

Of course, it's really early, but I can easily envision a still Socialist Cuba some 50 years from now.
 
Hatuey said:
You obviously don't understand how franchises work or for that matter how US entrepreneurs could improve the lives of Cubans by setting up business ventures in a country where the average person makes $15-$25 a month. Again, this is REALLY above your knowledge of how these things work.



Lmao, utter nonsense. Cuban employees working in Spanish hotels are some of the best paid workers in Cuba. People would rather work for foreign run companies than state controlled companies because of the opportunities which are open to them. Again, this is something you would know if your ignorance of the country wasn't so profoundly obvious.
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I know precisely how franchises work, who benefits and how. You however, so obviously do not. Don't care if we can "improve the lives of Cubans", thought I've made that clear in both threads on the subject. And you don't seem to get that the Cuban government as it is gets paid from all you've suggested. Opening trade and relations allows the Cuban government to prosper doing just what they are doing.
 
Hatuey said:
Not so fast, Cuba also owes American/Cuban citizens for the appropriation of private American businesses during the revolution. This issue is a little bit more complicated than "we owe them" and "evil communists" rhetoric. Mistakes were made by both sides and both sides need to figure out a solution to these issues the affected people on both sides of the waters.
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you mean the mafia don't you?

And of course, US sugar...who might wan to also consider paying back wages for the abuse they caused...
 
DaveFagan said:
I think that the USA should start by deciding how much in USA Dollars we
owe Cuba as a result of the 50 year embargo and sabotage. We definitely
owe reparations to that Nation. Maybe they'll be kind enough to lend us a
few Doctors or allow US students to attend Med School in Cuba.
Click to expand...

Seriously? Always giving away other's money. :lamo
 
Hatuey said:
Mischaracterizations? Are these not your words? "Cuba does not have a sizeable market we were trying to break into." - "We weren't embargoing China." - "We weren't embargoing China. We are with Cuba. Continue that until the government changes. "? There was nothing mischaracterized. Those are your words.
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So, realizing your arguments and insults hang upon mischaracterization you double down. :lamo
 
rocket88 said:
Admit it. You just thought of that and thought it sounded clever because "Obama, Obama, Obama!"


One question: How has the embargo improved the status of the Cuban people? Has it made them free?
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Obama gave away the only power the embargo had. The embargo was never meant to improve the status of the Cuban people. It was intended to oppose totalitarianism by the Castro regime and keep pressure on Russia make Cuba a financial burden on them. I personally favor improved relations with Cuba but only if the Cuban government agrees to changes in it's governance which will make it a freer, economically stable and less authoritarian.

The way to do that is to negotiate changes within their country with the way they treat their people. If your first act is to give away all your chips, and you no longer have anything to negotiate with, well, where I come from, that's called just plain stupid.

Obama announced this as a grand foreign policy victory. All it did is embolden the Castro regime and give them the upper hand in negotiations moving forward. It's a foreign policy failure.
 
Fletch said:
Why not demand a few concessions? Why not get something out of it, like basic human rights for the Cuban people? That we haven't pushed oppressive governments in the past is no reason to continue it.
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There have been concessions by the Cuban government, the first of which was for Cuba to release political dissidents, Cuba has started releasing them in accordance with the Helms-Burton Act of '94. The second has been a lifting of bans of small private enterprise in Cuba and home ownership rights have been restored slowly.
 
clownboy said:
So, realizing your arguments and insults hang upon mischaracterization you double down. :lamo
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Trying to win an argument by not actually addressing your silly claims? Par for the course. Tell us again about how we didn't have an embargo on China. :)
 
Fearandloathing said:
you mean the mafia don't you?

And of course, US sugar...who might wan to also consider paying back wages for the abuse they caused...
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Those weren't the only businesses. Cuba's middle class and upper middle class also fled the country a few months/years after the revolution. There are entire neighborhoods in Centro Habana where people will talk to you about who use to own the houses. Many were owned by working class/middle class people who left in the early 1960s because the situation in the country simply wouldn't have benefited them.
 
clownboy said:
The agricultural market argument is rank bull****. Predicated upon the specious presumption that farmers have an overproduction of goods. Are those farmers going to start producing more to meet the demand? Will more agricultural land magically appear? Is there agricultural land going fallow now, waiting for a greater market?

Of course the Chamber wants it, they also are just fine with open borders.
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The agricultural market is also subsidized to not produce in order to control prices. THAT is money out of our pockets. So opening new markets in Cuba will rectify that.
 
Hatuey said:
There have been concessions by the Cuban government, the first of which was for Cuba to release political dissidents, Cuba has started releasing them in accordance with the Helms-Burton Act of '94. The second has been a lifting of bans of small private enterprise in Cuba and home ownership rights have been restored slowly.
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That's a good start, I suppose. Hopefully full normalization will proceed from here based on more substantive concession by the Cuban government.
 
Fletch said:
That's a good start, I suppose. Hopefully full normalization will proceed from here based on more substantive concession by the Cuban government.
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Well, this issue really has several complex layers. Cuba insisting it won't make major changes is just absurd. 20 years ago, this is a country where private ownership of a home simply didn't exist. Fast forward to today, and I've slept in privately owned Cuban B&Bs in Old Havana. Of course, the government still owns the majority of businesses in the country but there is no doubt that this is slowly rotting away and private enterprise is making inroads in spite of the US' absurd embargo and Cuba's rhetoric. Cubans living abroad bring money into the country and this has helped many Cubans slowly climb out of poverty. Continuing the US' policies will only retard the process.
 
Hatuey said:
Well, this issue really has several complex layers. Cuba insisting it won't make major changes is just absurd. 20 years ago, this is a country where private ownership of a home simply didn't exist. Fast forward to today, and I've slept in privately owned Cuban B&Bs in Old Havana. Of course, the government still owns the majority of businesses in the country but there is no doubt that this is slowly rotting away and private enterprise is making inroads in spite of the US' absurd embargo and Cuba's rhetoric. Cubans living abroad bring money into the country and this has helped many Cubans slowly climb out of poverty. Continuing the US' policies will only retard the process.
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I have never been in support of the embargo. I think it has actually helped prop up the commie govt. Open that nation up to trade, tourism and American capitalism and communism will collapse in minutes.
 
Hatuey said:
Those weren't the only businesses. Cuba's middle class and upper middle class also fled the country a few months/years after the revolution. There are entire neighborhoods in Centro Habana where people will talk to you about who use to own the houses. Many were owned by working class/middle class people who left in the early 1960s because the situation in the country simply wouldn't have benefited them.
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I am more than a little aware of Cuba's history...

What middle class in the 50's....it was a ****ing police state, slave labor was used in the Cane fields and the Mafia ran the whole ****ing country...it was the single largest jumping off point for heroin, cocaine and marijuana.

Those who talk about small, family owned businesses and **** are talking about a very, very small fraction of the country, most who "escaped" were well connected enough to buy their way out, or with the help of the mafia.
 
Fletch said:
I have never been in support of the embargo. I think it has actually helped prop up the commie govt. Open that nation up to trade, tourism and American capitalism and communism will collapse in minutes.
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That's pretty much how I feel. Cuba is a country with people who would rather sell drugs than depend on the government for a paycheck because the government pays so little. In infrastructure alone, the US could put tens of thousands of people to work fixing the country's decrepit (if existent) sewage systems. Cuba also has a huge community of well educated professionals that are just full of potential. Jesus, when I went to Mexico I met with professionals who praised Cuba's large number of good doctor and teachers. It seems absolutely ridiculous that any person can confidently claim that the country has nothing we want.
 
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