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Thread: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

  1. #121
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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There have been concessions by the Cuban government, the first of which was for Cuba to release political dissidents, Cuba has started releasing them in accordance with the Helms-Burton Act of '94. The second has been a lifting of bans of small private enterprise in Cuba and home ownership rights have been restored slowly.
    That's a good start, I suppose. Hopefully full normalization will proceed from here based on more substantive concession by the Cuban government.

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    That's a good start, I suppose. Hopefully full normalization will proceed from here based on more substantive concession by the Cuban government.
    Well, this issue really has several complex layers. Cuba insisting it won't make major changes is just absurd. 20 years ago, this is a country where private ownership of a home simply didn't exist. Fast forward to today, and I've slept in privately owned Cuban B&Bs in Old Havana. Of course, the government still owns the majority of businesses in the country but there is no doubt that this is slowly rotting away and private enterprise is making inroads in spite of the US' absurd embargo and Cuba's rhetoric. Cubans living abroad bring money into the country and this has helped many Cubans slowly climb out of poverty. Continuing the US' policies will only retard the process.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Well, this issue really has several complex layers. Cuba insisting it won't make major changes is just absurd. 20 years ago, this is a country where private ownership of a home simply didn't exist. Fast forward to today, and I've slept in privately owned Cuban B&Bs in Old Havana. Of course, the government still owns the majority of businesses in the country but there is no doubt that this is slowly rotting away and private enterprise is making inroads in spite of the US' absurd embargo and Cuba's rhetoric. Cubans living abroad bring money into the country and this has helped many Cubans slowly climb out of poverty. Continuing the US' policies will only retard the process.
    I have never been in support of the embargo. I think it has actually helped prop up the commie govt. Open that nation up to trade, tourism and American capitalism and communism will collapse in minutes.

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Those weren't the only businesses. Cuba's middle class and upper middle class also fled the country a few months/years after the revolution. There are entire neighborhoods in Centro Habana where people will talk to you about who use to own the houses. Many were owned by working class/middle class people who left in the early 1960s because the situation in the country simply wouldn't have benefited them.


    I am more than a little aware of Cuba's history...

    What middle class in the 50's....it was a ****ing police state, slave labor was used in the Cane fields and the Mafia ran the whole ****ing country...it was the single largest jumping off point for heroin, cocaine and marijuana.

    Those who talk about small, family owned businesses and **** are talking about a very, very small fraction of the country, most who "escaped" were well connected enough to buy their way out, or with the help of the mafia.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
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  5. #125
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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I have never been in support of the embargo. I think it has actually helped prop up the commie govt. Open that nation up to trade, tourism and American capitalism and communism will collapse in minutes.
    That's pretty much how I feel. Cuba is a country with people who would rather sell drugs than depend on the government for a paycheck because the government pays so little. In infrastructure alone, the US could put tens of thousands of people to work fixing the country's decrepit (if existent) sewage systems. Cuba also has a huge community of well educated professionals that are just full of potential. Jesus, when I went to Mexico I met with professionals who praised Cuba's large number of good doctor and teachers. It seems absolutely ridiculous that any person can confidently claim that the country has nothing we want.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    The agricultural market argument is rank bull****. Predicated upon the specious presumption that farmers have an overproduction of goods. Are those farmers going to start producing more to meet the demand? Will more agricultural land magically appear? Is there agricultural land going fallow now, waiting for a greater market?
    Stating that some food to Cuba is already allowed, and that removal of these restrictions will make it even easier and have more opportunities with Cuba.. Yes, it is incredibly beneficial.

    "It's hard to quantify just how much of a boost the planned changes will give to U.S.-Cuban agricultural trade, said C. Parr Rosson III, head of the agricultural economics department at Texas A&M University. But he predicted it could grow to $400 million to $450 million within a couple of years.

    "That's just a back-of-the-envelope estimate on my part ... but the market can make those swings very readily," he said."
    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014...ture.html?_r=0

    Of course the Chamber wants it, they also are just fine with open borders.
    Do you dispute their numbers?


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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    I am more than a little aware of Cuba's history...

    What middle class in the 50's....it was a ****ing police state, slave labor was used in the Cane fields and the Mafia ran the whole ****ing country...it was the single largest jumping off point for heroin, cocaine and marijuana.

    Those who talk about small, family owned businesses and **** are talking about a very, very small fraction of the country, most who "escaped" were well connected enough to buy their way out, or with the help of the mafia.
    You're wrong about this. Cuba's middle class also consisted of doctors, lawyers, small business owners who weren't connected to the mafia. Many of these people were forced to flee soon after the revolution. Entire neighborhoods in Habana City were left empty overnight. Many of the country's tourism workers also left, it wasn't just the owners and mafia dons who had a stake in the economy and many of the people who could afford to leave did so the moment Castro started nationalizing industries. Nobody is questioning that the country was a police state before and after the revolution, what I am questioning is the notion that one side owes the other more or vise versa.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You're wrong about this. Cuba's middle class also consisted of doctors, lawyers, small business owners who weren't connected to the mafia. Many of these people were forced to flee soon after the revolution. Entire neighborhoods in Habana City were left empty overnight. Many of the country's tourism workers also left, it wasn't just the owners and mafia dons who had a stake in the economy and many of the people who could afford to leave did so the moment Castro started nationalizing industries. Nobody is questioning that the country was a police state before and after the revolution, what I am questioning is the notion that one side owes the other more or vise versa.
    No I am not.

    I have been there, seen the pictures and read the notes.

    The idea you have been fed is complete bull**** to justify a scared little president who got called by a smarter Russian over missiles in Turkey.

    The "embargo" is a farce. The people of Cuba are more free under a dictatorship than mafia run slavery.

    You need to do some reading your government won't let you see...
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Another Obama foreign policy success.

    Can someone explain what we got in return for this?
    What do we get? Exactly like the so-called Iranian deal: Nothing
    President Moron is a terrible negotiator. Just add it to the list of things he sucks at.

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    Re: Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's their business what freedoms they give their citizens. Not up to us. We dont dictate to China or Saudi Arabia, for ex, how to treat their citizens. We huff and puff but do little of substance. Our attempts at changes to human rights have taken years and have made no inroads in SA.

    that doesnt mean I like the system in Cuba, just that it's hypocritical to consider it our business, both in general and there specifically.
    If they want the sanctions/embargos and such off, then they better start considering political reforms or the deal is OFF.

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