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Thread: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ...

    But the reason that you leap upon the correlation between "women's financial independence" and "birthrate" is because you are assuming single-parenthood. If you want women to be well-supported in raising healthy children, the single best thing they can have is not cash, but a husband. Government performs miserably when it tries to take over the support (both financial and social) that a successful family and social network provide.
    I agree that 2 parent stable families are very important.
    Many pro life people fail to see that by pushing women/ girls to continue unwanted pregnancies they are encouraging women to become single mothers.

    In the US marriage is usually delayed in today's world unlike in the not so distant past.

    Many young people are going to college or focusing on careers before even thinking about children or marriage.

    Since the sex drive is very strong in the teens and twenty's and abstinence is unrealistic , and most birth control is not goof proof unwanted pregnancies might happen which means the girl/ woman has one of two choices; have an abortion or have a baby.
    Most single moms stay single moms and many end up on welfare.

    Those who have abortions and delay motherhood may very well get married later and start families.

    We have to be realistic and know that is what happens.

    If we want the future generations to have two parent families we have to understand that sometimes some of those girls/ women just might have had an early abortion before they marry and raise a family.

    As I have mentioned earlier, I feel that with the new virtually goof proof long term birth control , there will be fewer and fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

    To me long term birth control is the hope for more stable two parent families in the future.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    I agree that 2 parent stable families are very important.
    Is that why you pay to kill other human beings as you stated in this thread, minnie? Because if the kids don't have 2 parents, they're better off dead?

    It's just fascinating the mental gymnastics one must employ to make that seem benevolent instead of what it really is.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 01-25-15 at 08:13 AM.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    You dont value 'life.' You value life selectively. So do I but at least I admit it. You do not value women's lives. It's plain as day^^^^.

    You post is full of ignorance. But it makes plain what you think of women. And it's mostly wrong when it comes to abortion. BIrth control fails, so women should just never have sex? Yeah, men and women have sex and that isnt going to change...hasnt for millenia. So you would deny women enjoying sex? Disrespect. You dont care what happens to their lives, disrespect. You'd have millions of married couples that cant afford a kid, cant afford more kids, or never want kids to never have sex? Ludicrous.

    Do I place women above the unborn? Of course. Do I think the unborn are unimportant? No but women are more important. They are here, contributing to society while the unborn are not and may not survive to be born or might be born severely defective.

    Which one of those sounds logical and in the best interests of the individual and society? Placing women first. It's insulting to compare various undeveloped human stages to a complete woman just because you choose to judge her behavior.(Incorrectly for the most part as I pointed out.)

    Like I said, there's been no harm to society by abortion, but the benefits are well-known.
    Rationalize as you please, but abortion does harm society. It devalues human life itself, and this is a slippery slope...why stop with killing the unborn? Why not the terribly inconvenient as well as the imperfect and those who are old and no longer "contributing"?

    You consistently claim, Lursa, no matter how many times those who are pro-life tell you otherwise, that those who are pro-life value the unborn more than they do living women. There should be a balance between individual rights and personal and societal responsibilities.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Rationalize as you please, but abortion does harm society. It devalues human life itself, and this is a slippery slope...why stop with killing the unborn? Why not the terribly inconvenient as well as the imperfect and those who are old and no longer "contributing"?
    Good ol' Logan's Run, and / or that episode of TNG where they found a planet that did much the same thing.

    You're correct, as usual, nb.

    It's not complicated and it's not any kind of stretch of the imagination. If you start drawing a line about which humans are okay to kill in aggression, then you're saying it's okay to draw such lines in the first place. If it's okay to draw such lines, you might find yourself on the wrong side of a line one day. If that alone doesn't activate some kind of empathy or golden rule morality pang, then one's moral compass is broken.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    I agree that 2 parent stable families are very important.
    Many pro life people fail to see that by pushing women/ girls to continue unwanted pregnancies they are encouraging women to become single mothers.

    That's not true at all Minnie...As a father of two, one girl, and one boy, whom are now grown, and going through school, I told both of them the same thing...And that is the same thing my father and mother drilled into me and my sister...That the act of sex will result in creating a child, and that their dreams, and their goals in life stop at that moment. That when they make the decision to have sex, they at that moment they are making a decision to alter their life's path....And that their mother and I don't condone killing the child so that they can indulge in the act care free....Luckily they are finishing up their schooling path, and getting ready to start their careers...

    In the US marriage is usually delayed in today's world unlike in the not so distant past.

    Many young people are going to college or focusing on careers before even thinking about children or marriage.
    That's right, and therefore they should focus on them, and make sure they keep the sexual activity to a minimum, and fully protected against pregnancy before they reach their goals...

    Since the sex drive is very strong in the teens and twenty's and abstinence is unrealistic , and most birth control is not goof proof unwanted pregnancies might happen which means the girl/ woman has one of two choices; have an abortion or have a baby.
    Most single moms stay single moms and many end up on welfare.
    That is true, and that is why we have to educate them on not only how to use it effectively, but instill in them the importance of remaining child free until they are ready...We simply can not just throw up our hands and say to ourselves "ah well, they're going to do it anyway" and leave it at that....Just as with drugs, and as hard as it is for today's parents to have these conversations with their kids, they have to stop trying to be their friends, and start being parents....

    Those who have abortions and delay motherhood may very well get married later and start families.
    And they may not...your use of conjecture is suspect, and fills an awfully convenient hole in the logic.

    We have to be realistic and know that is what happens.
    I agree, and that starts with informing them not only that the act of having sex is not just some fun recreational activity, but that it results in a child and when that happens their life is about that life they created...Not that it is just some anomaly that can be discarded like yesterday's trash....

    If we want the future generations to have two parent families we have to understand that sometimes some of those girls/ women just might have had an early abortion before they marry and raise a family.
    Shouldn't we want to decrease that scenario? I agree that teen pregnancy, and 'child mothers' are a problem, then we should educate that to stop that, and increase these girls self esteem so that they think more of themselves than getting pregnant before they are ready....Not telling them that it no problem if they do, because they can just kill the result..

    As I have mentioned earlier, I feel that with the new virtually goof proof long term birth control , there will be fewer and fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
    Not familiar with what you are speaking of...Is there something new on the market? But as good as that is we still need to educate our kids as how to put off immediate gratification, and how to be respectful of young women for boys, and how to respect themselves for girls...That can't happen too easily if they are taught that murder is ok for life that is inconvenient...

    To me long term birth control is the hope for more stable two parent families in the future.
    Mine too Minnie, we disagree how to get there, but that's ok.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That's not true at all Minnie...As a father of two, one girl, and one boy, whom are now grown, and going through school, I told both of them the same thing...And that is the same thing my father and mother drilled into me and my sister...That the act of sex will result in creating a child, and that their dreams, and their goals in life stop at that moment. That when they make the decision to have sex, they at that moment they are making a decision to alter their life's path....And that their mother and I don't condone killing the child so that they can indulge in the act care free....Luckily they are finishing up their schooling path, and getting ready to start their careers...

    That's right, and therefore they should focus on them, and make sure they keep the sexual activity to a minimum, and fully protected against pregnancy before they reach their goals...

    That is true, and that is why we have to educate them on not only how to use it effectively, but instill in them the importance of remaining child free until they are ready...We simply can not just throw up our hands and say to ourselves "ah well, they're going to do it anyway" and leave it at that....Just as with drugs, and as hard as it is for today's parents to have these conversations with their kids, they have to stop trying to be their friends, and start being parents....

    I agree, and that starts with informing them not only that the act of having sex is not just some fun recreational activity, but that it results in a child and when that happens their life is about that life they created...Not that it is just some anomaly that can be discarded like yesterday's trash....

    ...
    I am glad your philosophy has worked well for your family and your 2 children.

    But I still feel there would not be so many single parents if the pro life movement did not demonize abortion and glorify unwed mothers for choosing to continue unwanted pregnancies.
    Look at how many pro life /conservatives congratulated and defended Sarah Palin's daughter Bristol when she became a single unwed mother.

    From this article:


    As the co-authors of Red Families v. Blue Families, we often give talks about the recent rise in what’s called the “nonmarital birthrate,” or the idea that more than 40 percent of children are now born to women who aren’t married. Sometimes at our talks someone will come up to us, confess his or her encounter with single parenthood, and say something like:

    “When my daughter got pregnant and decided to keep the child, we were OK with that because we are Christians. When she decided not to marry the father, we were relieved because we knew he would be bad for her and the marriage would never work.”

    They express these two beliefs—that they are Christian and thus uncomfortable with abortion and that they are relieved their daughter decided to raise the child alone—as if they are not connected.


    But in fact this may be one of the stranger, more unexpected legacies of the pro-life movement that arose in the 40 years since Roe v. Wade: In conservative communities, the hardening of anti-abortion attitudes may have increased the acceptance of single-parent families. And by contrast, in less conservative communities, the willingness to accept abortion has helped create more stable families.

    Researchers have considered many reasons for the rise in the nonmarital birthrate—the welfare state, the decline of morals, the increasing independence of women, even gay marriage. But one that people on neither the left nor the right talk about much is how it’s connected to abortion. The working class had long dealt with the inconvenient fact of an accidental pregnancy through the shotgun marriage. As blue-collar jobs paying a family wage have disappeared, however, so has early marriage. Women are then left with two choices:

    They can delay childbearing (which might entail getting an abortion at some point) until the right man comes along or get more comfortable with the idea of becoming single mothers. College-educated elites have endorsed the first option, but everyone else is drifting toward the second.


    In geographical regions and social classes where the stigma for having an abortion is high, the nonmarital birthrate is also high. Without really thinking about it or setting up any structures to support it, women in more conservative communities are raising children alone. This is a legacy the pro-life movement has not really grappled with.
    http://www.slate.com/articles/double...ngle_moms.html
    Last edited by minnie616; 01-25-15 at 01:08 PM.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Look at how most pro life conservatives congratulated and defended Sarah Palin's daughter Bristol when she became a single unwed mother.
    Yes, I know, we're just awful, look how we lauded someone for practicing what they preach. Mrs. Palin also had an unplanned kid with Down's syndrome, and she totally didn't murder it for its own good. What an awful person she is, obviously, and how awful "pro-life conservatives" are for defending such heinous actions.

    Please tell us more about this moral high ground of yours where killing humans needlessly is your excuse for charity, whereas being a parent to the offspring you create is contemptible.

    No doubt if Mrs. Palin had killed her own child you pro-abort leftists would have come out of the woodwork in support, certainly wouldn't have called that some variant of "typical hypocrisy" and wouldn't have spammed that goddamn article about "The Only Moral Abortion." Certainly not.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 01-25-15 at 01:16 PM.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    ...



    Not familiar with what you are speaking of...Is there something new on the market? ...
    Between the years 2008 and 2011 the numbers of abortions decreased by 13 percent, mostly because more women of child bearing years were using long term birth control which has a much lower failure rate than birth control pills or condoms.


    From this Fox News article:
    NEW YORK – The U.S. abortion rate declined to its lowest level since 1973, and the number of abortions fell by 13 percent between 2008 and 2011, according the latest national survey of abortion providers conducted by a prominent research institute.
    ...
    According to the report, the abortion rate dropped to 16.9 abortions per 1,000 women ages 15-44 in 2011, well below the peak of 29.3 in 1981 and the lowest since a rate of 16.3 in 1973.
    ...

    The lead author, Rachel Jones, also said there appeared to be no link to a decline in the number of abortion providers. According to the report, the total number of providers dropped by 4 percent, to 1,720, between 2008 and 2011, and the number of abortion clinics declined by just 1 percent to 839.
    And from this article:

    "Contraceptive use improved during this period, as more women and couples were using highly effective long-acting reversible contraceptive methods," she said.
    Long term birth control nearly doubled in recent years



    The report found that 7.2 percent of U.S. women ages 15 to 44 reported using long-acting reversible contraception (LARC), such as intrauterine devices (IUDs), in the month they were asked the question during 2011 to 2013. That's up from 3.8 percent who said the same in the period from 2006 to 2010, said Kimberly Daniels, a co-author of the report and a researcher at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics.

    The use of LARC was more common among women ages 25 to 34 — about 11 percent of women in this age group used LARC, compared with about 5 percent of women who were either younger or older.
    http://www.livescience.com/49091-lon...-increase.html
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The thought of involuntary socialism disgusts me as well. But not as much as having a public policy of mass murder. If you have to ask me to either stand in a bread line or kill a child, well, where's the end of the line.

    Okay. Then put your money where your mouth is. Take an assault rifle, head to your nearest public housing neighborhood, and "do some good" by blowing the youngest kids you can find into kingdom come before they have to suffer through living too much.

    However, before you do that, you may want to consider whether or not your standards are incredibly out of whack with the global and historical norm. Our poor live better lives than kings used to, and better lives than most the world today.


    Heck, plenty of our lower-income families are in the global top 1%. 1%ers, and you're talking about how their lives are so miserable it's better if they just die.
    So, good. You are clear once again. You would accept a ****ty quality of life over more bodies on the planet - quality of life over quantity. Good for you. It's a joke then when you said to Phys that you have the moral High Ground. To wish that on everyone? I mean, you are certainly welcome to spend ALL your income on handing out birth control and counseling pregnant women. Is that your current 'day job?' And then you live off of welfare to support yourself?

    And choosing to publicly (which is what a campaign against abortion is) treat women as less than the unborn is again, not even close to the High Ground. To place several stages of unborn humans above women? To say they are equal? Wow. So i do not support trashing the Constitution and taking away the rights that women had to fight to get in the first place. So that the next generations of women and girls wont grow up being 'less.'

    And your continuing minimization and rationalizations around poverty are useless. Poverty sucks. People in poverty suffer. If you think the poor people in this country arent suffering....strike 3 for your moral High Ground.

    Your desperation in this argument shows when you go all dramatic and suggest I go shoot children btw. Why would I kill kids? Kids are born
    Last edited by Lursa; 01-25-15 at 02:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #220
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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Rationalize as you please, but abortion does harm society. It devalues human life itself, and this is a slippery slope...why stop with killing the unborn? Why not the terribly inconvenient as well as the imperfect and those who are old and no longer "contributing"?

    You consistently claim, Lursa, no matter how many times those who are pro-life tell you otherwise, that those who are pro-life value the unborn more than they do living women. There should be a balance between individual rights and personal and societal responsibilities.
    Thank you. However you admit that you know I disagree but at least you attempted an answer, as others have not.

    So my question is, how is treating women as less than the unborn "better for society?" That is devaluing women. It absolutely is. It is telling them that their lives and futures are LESS important than the unborn. How does that not devalue them? That they are not equal to the various developmental stages of humans before birth?

    There should be a balance between lives. The only rational one is born/unborn. And to truly make that balance work, we have choice. Women can choose if they can afford or are mentally/physically able to care for a baby yet. It is presumptuous bordering on the ludicrous that *strangers or the govt* should make that decision for her. Because neither of those has to take the risks to their lives or health or futures, do they? No, only the woman will have to undergo whatever comes, up to and including death, because it cant be predicted and the govt cant protect her, can it?

    So, as you have been asked before and not answered, how can the govt treat both the unborn and born equally? It cant, unless you can explain.

    Otherwise, we have to choose which has the superior right to life and self-determination. It doesnt mean the other one does not deserve that....but like you said: we need a balance. And it cant be equal.

    So, I choose the born as more deserving of life, health, a future. You claim that devalues the unborn. I say that doesnt matter. They arent aware that society considers them 2nd class...it doesnt harm them in anyway. If the MOTHER values them, then that's all that matters....because then they are born and become persons.

    You choose the unborn as more deserving of life, health, a future. I say that devalues all women and girls and does indeed harm them in our society. They would see that they have been relegated to 2nd class citizens with a govt that can tell them what to do with their bodies. (yes....the unborn affect THEIR bodies.)

    So I dont know why some people believe the unborn are more deserving of life and self-determination than women but that seems to be the crux of the matter. J-mac on here has continually posted that if women want to have sex, even married or using bc, they deserve to be punished with a kid...that's the consequences of having sex. That is clear disrespect. Nothing about the kid, just that's 'what she deserves.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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