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Thread: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Now, now. No need for the childishness. We had something good going; let's try and get back to that.
    You started by accusing the pro-life of basically being a bunch of big ole fat meany liars. It was and remains an idiotic argument, which is why I showed you what the mirror image of it was, in order to demonstrate that to you. Both pro-life and pro-choice folks usually come to this debate with good motivations. Choose to mass-smear the other side well, intelligent folks will stop taking you seriously.

    Alright, raising the child tax credit. That is a good start. Let's perhaps cap that increase at a certain number, say, 4 or 5, to avoid rewarding families such as the Duggars.
    Why?

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I note that you ignored my response to your glib and innaccurate characterization of poverty.
    I don't recall ever glibly or inaccurately describing poverty. Much less do I understand why that is your response to me pointing out that the claim that the pro-life movement doesn't really want to reduce abortions is ridiculous.

    So humane of you to think the govt should demand it of women that get pregnant and then just leave their to grow up like this, with a greater likelihood of becoming less educated, more criminal, and more of a burden on society financially in general.
    This is what is known as a strawman argument combined with an appeal to emotion. However, yes, I do think that it is a humane position to take that we should not kill children because it would either make our lives less difficult or because they would otherwise grow up in rough circumstances.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't recall ever glibly or inaccurately describing poverty. Much less do I understand why that is your response to me pointing out that the claim that the pro-life movement doesn't really want to reduce abortions is ridiculous.
    Odd, I copied it for you twice and bolded it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This isn't "dictating personal behavior" for the pro-life portion of this nation. This is about stopping mass-murder. I would vote the country into absolute socialism if it meant getting rid of abortion. Ppeople who are poor and occasionally hungry are at least alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This is what is known as a strawman argument combined with an appeal to emotion. However, yes, I do think that it is a humane position to take that we should not kill children because it would either make our lives less difficult or because they would otherwise grow up in rough circumstances.
    No it's not, because it was in the context of the previous quote (and bold). And I guess it's a matter of opinion whether it's more humane to not even bring those unborn into the world than to have them make the lives of many others difficult, miserable, etc including suffering themselves. Some will find it all worth it. Some will not.

    What is known is that society overall benefits from women being the ones to choose and not bringing kids into the world if they arent ready or wont make a good parent. What isnt documented is how abortion negatively affects society.

    And in the long run, that's what I find the more compelling argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Dumb. Nothing is there that couldn't have been worked out, and limiting abortion past pain-capable is a popular position in the US. Force the President to veto it or Senate Democrats to filibuster it, and make them go on record as well to the left of the American populace.
    Popularity doesn't change the fact that it is a scientific impossibility for a fetus to be pain-capable prior to 28 weeks of gestation. At least the left is intellectually honest about this issue and doesn't try to use photoshopped images and pseudo-science as a smokescreen for a purely religious agenda.
    Last edited by Napoleon; 01-23-15 at 11:31 PM.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Odd, I copied it for you twice and bolded it.
    Ah. There is the problem - the point wooshed completely by you. I was stating that socialism causes poverty and hunger, but that both were preferable to death, which is why socialism is preferable to me as a conservative to mass-abortion.

    As someone who has had both options (hunger and death) presented to him, allow me to assure you that no, in fact, I can't think of a single time when I went to bed hungry that I thought "man, it would be so much better if I were to be killed on deployment, rather than have to face temporary fiscal problems". Mostly I thought things like "I am really glad that one day I will not have to do this." and "I wonder if we still have that potato in the back of the pantry". We weren't completely impoverished, mind you. Had a couple of $2-3,000 cars, an apartment that kept out all the bad weather, hand-me-down furniture, and the like. Except for a few months, we've never been unemployed, etc.

    And kids can get expensive . But you know what? Trading their lives for reduced hardship is wrong.

    No it's not, because it was in the context of the previous quote (and bold). And I guess it's a matter of opinion whether it's more humane to not even bring those unborn into the world than to have them make the lives of many others difficult, miserable, etc including suffering themselves. Some will find it all worth it. Some will not.
    That..... blows my mind. Have you ever faced hardship?

    What is known is that society overall benefits from women being the ones to choose and not bringing kids into the world if they arent ready or wont make a good parent. What isnt documented is how abortion negatively affects society.

    And in the long run, that's what I find the more compelling argument.
    This must be a left/right thing. I tend to start from the assumption that the rights of the individual generally trump what is most convenient for society.

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    Popularity doesn't change the fact that it is a scientific impossibility for a fetus to be pain-capable prior to 28 weeks of gestation. At least the left is intellectually honest about this issue and doesn't try to use photoshopped images and pseudo-science as a smokescreen for a purely religious agenda.



    Yeah. Because when I think about the absolute hysteria that comes along with even any attempt to align our abortion policy with that of Europe's, what I think about is all the intellectual honesty going on

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah. There is the problem - the point wooshed completely by you. I was stating that socialism causes poverty and hunger, but that both were preferable to death, which is why socialism is preferable to me as a conservative to mass-abortion.

    As someone who has had both options (hunger and death) presented to him, allow me to assure you that no, in fact, I can't think of a single time when I went to bed hungry that I thought "man, it would be so much better if I were to be killed on deployment, rather than have to face temporary fiscal problems". Mostly I thought things like "I am really glad that one day I will not have to do this." and "I wonder if we still have that potato in the back of the pantry". We weren't completely impoverished, mind you. Had a couple of $2-3,000 cars, an apartment that kept out all the bad weather, hand-me-down furniture, and the like. Except for a few months, we've never been unemployed, etc.

    And kids can get expensive . But you know what? Trading their lives for reduced hardship is wrong.



    That..... blows my mind. Have you ever faced hardship?



    This must be a left/right thing. I tend to start from the assumption that the rights of the individual generally trump what is most convenient for society.
    That is an excellent post Will, and highlights the true reason for what I would say, 98% of all the abortions in this country, and that is that they are a convenience issue...That to me is morally reprehensible.
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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You started by accusing the pro-life of basically being a bunch of big ole fat meany liars. It was and remains an idiotic argument, which is why I showed you what the mirror image of it was, in order to demonstrate that to you. Both pro-life and pro-choice folks usually come to this debate with good motivations. Choose to mass-smear the other side well, intelligent folks will stop taking you seriously.
    Stop being so hypersensitive. The "pro-life" movement is full of hypocrisy; am I supposed to sugarcoat that somehow to make y'all feel better? No. Not gonna happen, especially when one considers what y'all are pushing for. Stop expecting us to just be nice, because y'all sure as hell aren't.

    Why?
    Why not? What business does a couple have bringing 7, 8, 9 or more kids into this world? Unless they're super-rich--and one must note that super-rich couples practically never have this many kids any more--this is going to create problems that spill over into society at large. Now I'm not advocating a mandatory cap on the number of children--far from it--but let's stop kidding ourselves that having a ton of kids is a good thing.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Stop being so hypersensitive. The "pro-life" movement is full of hypocrisy; am I supposed to sugarcoat that somehow to make y'all feel better? No. Not gonna happen, especially when one considers what y'all are pushing for. Stop expecting us to just be nice, because y'all sure as hell aren't.



    Why not? What business does a couple have bringing 7, 8, 9 or more kids into this world? Unless they're super-rich--and one must note that super-rich couples practically never have this many kids any more--this is going to create problems that spill over into society at large. Now I'm not advocating a mandatory cap on the number of children--far from it--but let's stop kidding ourselves that having a ton of kids is a good thing.
    What do you think happens to a country when the birth rate falls lower than the death rate, or is outpaced by immigration?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: House GOP drops controversial abortion bill ahead of Roe v. Wade anniversary

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What do you think happens to a country when the birth rate falls lower than the death rate, or is outpaced by immigration?
    Easy: Modest-sized families. But that has become the norm nowadays, as most women don't view themselves as baby factories. And I find your question about immigration to be insinuating.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
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