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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
And NATO chose to expand there. But you don't see that.
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NATO couldn't have expanded there were it not actually asked to by the nations concerned . But you don't want to see that
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
You think Ukraine made money out of that lease? How about you read that treaty again.. Russia would sell natural gas/oil at a reduced cost for use of Crimea. Ukraine had to pay Russia for the natural gas/oil.
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Ergo Ukraine by saving money ultimately profited out of it so why would they want to disrupt such a mutually beneficial arrangement ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
True. And the canard that "these countries asked to join" should have been met with, "we're sorry, but we have agreements that prevent that eventuality". It's a disingenuous assertion.
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I think its high time that NATO's position be heard for a change and these ongoing mythologies addressed. Here is a comprehensive list of rebuttals to Russia's claims

http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm

I might add further to that, in that you cannot be claimed to be threatening anybody by halving your armed forces and dramatically reducing defence expenditures over the last 25 years. Russia has done the opposite so who is it that is threatening who ?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Ergo Ukraine by saving money ultimately profited out of it so why would they want to disrupt such a mutually beneficial arrangement ?
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They aren't profiting and the only way they can profit is by increasing prices on Ukrainians. That doesn't sit well to the local populace. Ergo, revolutions and riots.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
They aren't profiting and the only way they can profit is by increasing prices on Ukrainians. That doesn't sit well to the local populace. Ergo, revolutions and riots.
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Absolute nonsense. I notice you've dodged my question on Ukrainian security concerns again
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I think its high time that NATO's position be heard for a change and these ongoing mythologies addressed. Here is a comprehensive list of rebuttals to Russia's claims

http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm

I might add further to that, in that you cannot be claimed to be threatening anybody by halving your armed forces and dramatically reducing defence expenditures over the last 25 years. Russia has done the opposite so who is it that is threatening who ?
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NATO claims.. what about claims by the West German Government and US went East Germany was allowed to move to the West.

Another link.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Absolute nonsense. I notice you've dodged my question on Ukrainian security concerns again
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Nonsense.. read the treaty.. and I don't dodge.. I find it to be a half assed question.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
NATO claims.. what about claims by the West German Government and US went East Germany was allowed to move to the West.

Another link.
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NATO's take on Russia's claims are rather different and are spelled out in very great detail in my earlier link. NATO has been significantly reducing its armed forces over the decades and Russian intelligence is doubtless well aware of this. This better explains why they are emboldened to act as they have been of late
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Nonsense.. read the treaty.. and I don't dodge.. I find it to be a half assed question.
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Only because you are dodging again. So what about Ukraines security concerns or can Russia get to keep killing Ukrainians irrespective them ?
 
Simpleχity;1064224721 said:
The Moscow Times | U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'



Indeed. The rebels and Russia signed a document (The Minsk Agreement) which called for a ceasefire and a freeze on troop movements beginning at 1600 GMT on 5 September 2014. It was signed by rebel leaders Aleksandr Zakharchenko and Ihor Plotnytskiy and the Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov. Russia also agreed in Minsk to pull all forces and equipment out of Ukraine. Toilet paper promises.

Within the past two weeks, rebel forces supplied by and in tandem with Russian forces have launched a major offensive and have captured the Donetsk International Airport and ~500 sq. miles of additional territory. They have attacked on a curved arc beginning at Volnovakha in the southeast, north to Pisky, and east to Stanytsk-Luhanska. These forces now control 7% of Ukraine territory (besides Crimea) and 20% of the population.

8f86b41e08dc41959cccd4dbd94ee9db.jpg

Rebel armored vehicles (supplied by Russia) move towards Slovyanoserbsk in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday 21 January 2015. (Boston Herald)
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That makes a lot of imperial sense. When you grab a region, you should occupy it. That is the old fashioned way of growing Empire.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
No, I said I understood why.
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The why is simple, Putin wants to enlarge his empire. The justification is just no there.

Said Holy Roman Empire which is different then Roman Empire. Holy Roman Empire was born out of Treaty of Verdun in which separated Carolingian Empire into 3 parts.. but yes the Western Holy Empire also included large areas of this but.. what I am getting at is this.. Every damn country in the EU's former or active royal family all have lines that are pretty much one and it's based in the Holy Roman Empire structure. So for example..

House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha: UK, Belgium, Bulgaria, and Portugal.
House of Oldenburg: Norway, Sweden and Denmark. (Was last house of Russia).
House of Orange-Nassau: Netherlands and former house of UK.
House of Bourbon: France, Spain and a few other small areas.

Then the big daddy of them all the Habsburg: Which had a ruler in every Duchy or Kingdom outside of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
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Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They are not the same thing.
However it does go to my point that borders have been fluid and to say a border today can/should be changed because of the past is just opening the floodgates to pandemonium.

So you are telling me.. Ukraine gets EU membership, NATO membership and you think they would have honored the deal? Once you get membership you are golden and can tell Russia to bugger off.
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How would they do this? Since the west has honored its commitments elsewhere, Hong Kong for example was returned to China not held onto by the Brits, even though a large percent of the population there would have preferred that. So Europe and NATO are not likely to sanction the tearing up of such a deal, especially since it would require force to remove the Russians from Crimea. Then you have the Ukraine who regardless of NATO commitments needs the cash Russia provides to base their forces in Crimea. The suggestion that Ukraine might tear up the deal is moronic.
Basically it belong sin the CT section with all the other tin foil hat ideas, sure aliens may be using the dark side of the moon as a base to secretly control us, we cant prove otherwise (they have cloaking devices) but it is silly to believe it is true.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
You think Ukraine made money out of that lease? How about you read that treaty again.. Russia would sell natural gas/oil at a reduced cost for use of Crimea. Ukraine had to pay Russia for the natural gas/oil.
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At reduced cost so yeah it is in Ukraine's best interest to honor the deal.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
After multiple rebuttals of this and your continued multiple repetitions thereafter this is clearly just trolling
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The only thing that truly matters is how the crisis began and that beginning remains constant so the beginning is the FACT.

Everything that happened after the beginning of the crisis is just the consequence of the beginning.

So your rebuttals are invalid and the USA was instrumental in creating the hostilities in the Ukraine and that past history is the never changing FACT.

The ends do not justify the means, so what came after it started is just the after-effects.

The USA persuaded the Ukraine to act foolishly and then Russia responded accordingly.

It is not right to blame Russia for what the USA instigated.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
The only thing that truly matters is how the crisis began and that beginning remains constant so the beginning is the FACT.

Everything that happened after the beginning of the crisis is just the consequence of the beginning.
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Indeed . If only Russia hadn't tried to subvert Ukraine in the first place

So your rebuttals are invalid and the USA was instrumental in creating the hostilities in the Ukraine and that past history is the never changing FACT.
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It wasn't

The ends do not justify the means, so what came after it started is just the after-effects.
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Putin seems to disagree

The USA persuaded the Ukraine to act foolishly and then Russia responded accordingly.
It is not right to blame Russia for what the USA instigated.
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I'm not I'm blaming Russia for what Russia instigated. You've been shown NATO's position in all this so theres little more I can add. You'll believe what you want to believe whatever you get shown
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
The only thing that truly matters is how the crisis began and that beginning remains constant so the beginning is the FACT.

Everything that happened after the beginning of the crisis is just the consequence of the beginning.

So your rebuttals are invalid and the USA was instrumental in creating the hostilities in the Ukraine and that past history is the never changing FACT.

The ends do not justify the means, so what came after it started is just the after-effects.

The USA persuaded the Ukraine to act foolishly and then Russia responded accordingly.

It is not right to blame Russia for what the USA instigated.
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The Russians now know what Native American tribes learned many years ago--the US government is notorious for its lies and failure to live up to its word.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
The Russians now know what Native American tribes learned many years ago--the US government is notorious for its lies and failure to live up to its word.
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And all nations and people's are capable of the same, and in fact so many have. The thing here is that, Americans particularly, masquerade as the benevolent ones, the "shinning city on a hill" the defenders and promoters of democracy, the ones ever concerned with human rights, and self determination, lol. Except when we're not. If we didn't have a history of atrocities of our own, then there would be at least a level of legitimacy pointing at one country or another with the ever judgmental finger.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Perhaps a statement of international legalities might be in order here

According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

In line with those principles, Ukraine has the right to choose for itself whether it joins any treaty of alliance, including NATO's founding treaty.

Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

Thus Ukraine has the right to choose its own alliances, and Russia has, by its own repeated agreement, no right to dictate that choice.

Helsinki Final Act | OSCE
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
The Russians now know what Native American tribes learned many years ago--the US government is notorious for its lies and failure to live up to its word.
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Lets not forget that the USA attacked Vietnam based on lies, and we invaded Iraq based on more lies, and what we are doing in Syria is more lies, and the crisis in the Ukraine is based on American lies.

I say that we can be very certain that Russia will not be fooled by our continuing lies.



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flogger said:
Perhaps a statement of international legalities might be in order here

According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

In line with those principles, Ukraine has the right to choose for itself whether it joins any treaty of alliance, including NATO's founding treaty.

Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

Thus Ukraine has the right to choose its own alliances, and Russia has, by its own repeated agreement, no right to dictate that choice.

Helsinki Final Act | OSCE
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Well that is your opinion, or your interpretation of the treaty.

So why not send a letter over to the Ukraine and tell them to go ahead as they have every right, and forget about Russia as Russia does not have the right. Ha ha ha.

Russia has voiced its objection in a very matter-of-fact way so the Russian opinion and interpretation is the one which over rules.

The USA had better start hoping that Russia does not turn their reality against us because their business is not our business.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Well that is your opinion, or your interpretation of the treaty.
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No thats what the treaty says period. I've linked it so you have no excuse for misinterpreting it

So why not send a letter over to the Ukraine and tell them to go ahead as they have every right, and forget about Russia as Russia does not have the right. Ha ha ha.
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As a treaty signatory that is indeed correct. The right to national self determination is enshrined in this treaty

Russia has voiced its objection in a very matter-of-fact way so the Russian opinion and interpretation is the one which over rules.
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As a treaty signatory Russia is bound by its stipulations

The USA had better start hoping that Russia does not turn their reality against us because their business is not our business.
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Thankfully the rest of the world does not inhabit the pathologically anti American universe which you do
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
The Russians now know what Native American tribes learned many years ago--the US government is notorious for its lies and failure to live up to its word.
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Now its invoking crimes against native American tribes eh ? Why not just go the whole hog and blame Christopher Columbus for everything !

I've heard Ivan the Terrible was not a very nice guy which must explain Russia's actions today too right ?:lamo
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
Your geography is slightly confused--we invaded Afghanistan and then Iraq, not Crimea. We conduct drone strikes in numerous places around the globe. That is not seeking peace in any way at all, it is committing military aggression.
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We invaded Afghanistan because of the Taliban and Al-Queda.
We invaded Iraq under the concern of WMD
We use drone strikes to kill terrorists.

Care to try again?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
Except that Russia participated in the peace talks,

and Russia made agreements to help bring peace to the area,

while the USA refused to participate in any such talk of peace.
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Russia may have participated in the peace talks and signed a cease fire, but they didn't tell the terrorists they are supporting to stop shooting.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
NATO CHOSE to expand to Russian border.
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You're partially wrong.

NATO only expanded towards Russia because other countries voluntarily joined NATO.
 
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