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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I do not quite get who you mean when you say that no one accepts the Putin peace proposal, because the powerful Republic of Russia is far from being no one and they accept it.
Russia can propose that the moon is made of blue cheese also, doesn't mean anyone else will accept such nonsense.

Plus there is now a peace plan in effect created by Russia along with Germany and France while the USA is not included in any talks of PEACE.
The US has not been involved in any of the Minsk talks. Peace? It's impossible for peace to transpire when the rebels ignore the Minsk documents they sign...

Ukraine rebels disavow ceasefire at encircled town

But I did go back to your opening post and now I recognize that the link report comes from a site called "The Moscow Times" and that meant nothing to me at first but later in this thread that News source had been discredited as Western propaganda and THAT figures.
Sanoma also publishes Vedomosti (The Record), by far the most well read business newspaper in all of Russia.

As such I found a related link in the Yahoo News which is here = 40,000 attend Moscow pro-Putin rally - "Yankee go home"
Which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The so-called "right" is taken and it is not necessary to be given.
If that is your base ideology - right is might - then you have no grounds to complain about the actions of the US or any other nation. You can't have it both ways.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Still doesn't explain how Putin has the right to invade/cause chaos in a sovereign nation.
:attn1: See the answer below:
Simpleχity;1064342654 said:
If that is your base ideology - right is might - then you have no grounds to complain about the actions of the US or any other nation. You can't have it both ways.
It is a bit more complicated then that.

The USA is acting like the Bully of the world, and in the case of the Ukraine then Russia needed to step in and use their Russian might in order to do what is right.

It is not that Russia had any "right" to interfere, but that it was the right thing to do for Russia to interfere, and to intervene by force in the Ukraine or to use even greater force against the USA's bullying, because Russia is in the right.

A "right" has to be based on the right things and that is what makes them as a "right" when they are right.

As in we can not say that the USA has any right to interfere between the Ukraine and Russia because it is not right for the USA to do that, so we do not have that right.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

:attn1: See the answer below:

It is a bit more complicated then that.

The USA is acting like the Bully of the world, and in the case of the Ukraine then Russia needed to step in and use their Russian might in order to do what is right.
How is secretly invading and annexign par to fanother country right?

It is not that Russia had any "right" to interfere,
Correct they didnt.
but that it was the right thing to do for Russia to interfere, and to intervene by force in the Ukraine or to use even greater force against the USA's bullying, because Russia is in the right.
So if is the right thing to do for the USA to invade and annex part of Russia that would be ok? Seriously you are just daying right makes right.

A "right" has to be based on the right things and that is what makes them as a "right" when they are right.
So what "right" did Putin have in invading Ukraine other than Putin wanted to and Russias borders?
Hint the answer is NONE

As in we can not say that the USA has any right to interfere between the Ukraine and Russia because it is not right for the USA to do that, so we do not have that right.[/QUOTE]
 
Mr Mearsheimer's credentials crush flog's so called rebuttals.
Yes I know.

And that is why I keep putting it back into his face and eyes.

Of course he also keeps asking me for the proof or evidence and there it is.

Btw, aren't you tired of wasting your time on somebody who hasn't a clue about what has transpired in Ukraine? Lol.
I just do not look at it that way, so I do not see it as wasting my time.

I say your approach was using the truth and the "facts" and I am using a much different tactic.

He is being a bully as in this case a forum bully, and so the truth and facts are all the same while he is just trying to bully the argument, and to challenge that makes my participation rather much fun against him (and against the others of his kind).

I keep quoting your comment #369 because that is the facts and the truth in black-and-white and he has to squirm away from that which is pleasant to my eyes.

Taking this subject very seriously - hell yes, but taking the forced deceptions from a petty Bully is another matter.

And in sympathy to our other posters - they really are just preaching the propaganda brainwashing that our Government and the News shows are pushing onto the American public, so the posters here are really just following that same despicable example.

Are we really to blame the blind stupid sheep going to their slaughter? or do we turn the rightful blame against the wolves in the power position of being their Shepherds? as such there is no reason for me to get upset at a sheep.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The USA is acting like the Bully of the world, and in the case of the Ukraine then Russia needed to step in and use their Russian might in order to do what is right.

Russia is the invader, yet we are the bully? Try again.
 
Yes I know.

And that is why I keep putting it back into his face and eyes.

Of course he also keeps asking me for the proof or evidence and there it is.


I just do not look at it that way, so I do not see it as wasting my time.

I say your approach was using the truth and the "facts" and I am using a much different tactic.

He is being a bully as in this case a forum bully, and so the truth and facts are all the same while he is just trying to bully the argument, and to challenge that makes my participation rather much fun against him (and against the others of his kind).

I keep quoting your comment #369 because that is the facts and the truth in black-and-white and he has to squirm away from that which is pleasant to my eyes.

Taking this subject very seriously - hell yes, but taking the forced deceptions from a petty Bully is another matter.

And in sympathy to our other posters - they really are just preaching the propaganda brainwashing that our Government and the News shows are pushing onto the American public, so the posters here are really just following that same despicable example.

Are we really to blame the blind stupid sheep going to their slaughter? or do we turn the rightful blame against the wolves in the power position of being their Shepherds? as such there is no reason for me to get upset at a sheep.

I hear ya man.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Russia is the invader, yet we are the bully? Try again.

These Putin fanboys will happily sleepwalk us into a third world war if we let them so lets not :(
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

When they left their bases without their insignia or other and took over control of civilian Ukrainian parts of Crimea they WERE invading, followed by annexation.
So yeah they INVADED and continue to do so in eastern Ukraine.
I will ask you again
How does an internal Ukrainian situation give Putin the right to secretly invade and annex part of another country?

National Security. Russia's Black Sea fleet sits in Crimea. It's kinda funny you even ask that.. because it's pretty simple. But I doubt you knew that US Navy in 2013 was trying to "butter" up the those living in Crimea. Another point of view.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064339833 said:
A "vested interest" does not include any right to invade, annex, and destabilize a sovereign state.

What? US is known to do this (minus annex part). Be it in Iran, South America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and so on. So shhhhhhhh, you are being pretty hackish in responses.
 
Conspiratorial nonsense. Provide a quote from Crowley where he states in what capacity Erkko ever worked on behalf of the CIA. The "Crowley List" is nonsense.

Evaluation of the Crowley List of "CIA Sources"

Regardless the man's dead.

LOL. A list is a list. Crowely gave the last to others to be release upon his death. From Daniel Brandt and your like... some half-dozen are either Trilateral Commission members, or Bilderberg participants, or both. You know who's on both and the Crowely list? Aatos Errko.

But you got sloppy and tried to play a gotcha game.. You lose.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'


You mean the political Interpol which is required by law to add names by request of new governments despite evidence?
The fascist in Ukraine bitched for the last 8 months over it and US, UK and EU backed Ukraine claim.. color me NOT surprised. It's still political just as it was in the Balkans.

Like I said . Take it up with interpol who reconfirmed his wanted status just last month. I suspect these may be some of their reasons

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/2...control-from-documents-found-at-t#.kueQKD15wJ
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

What? US is known to do this (minus annex part). Be it in Iran, South America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and so on. So shhhhhhhh, you are being pretty hackish in responses.
And I haven't supported any of those adventures ... on the same grounds that I do here. It is morally, ethically, and legally wrong. You just can't seem to comprehend that. No matter what anyone else has done, it does not exculpate Russia in regards to Crimea and Ukraine. It's not a difficult concept ... the same international rules apply equally to everyone.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

National Security. Russia's Black Sea fleet sits in Crimea. It's kinda funny you even ask that.. because it's pretty simple. But I doubt you knew that US Navy in 2013 was trying to "butter" up the those living in Crimea. Another point of view.

By that twisted logic the USA has every right to invade and annex Cuba because of Guantanamo.
Seriously what right does Putin have to invade and annex part of another country and stop trying to pretend he didn't do that because even he admits he did.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

What? US is known to do this (minus annex part). Be it in Iran, South America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and so on. So shhhhhhhh, you are being pretty hackish in responses.

So if the US does something wrong then its OK for Putin to do so?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

What? US is known to do this (minus annex part). Be it in Iran, South America, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and so on. So shhhhhhhh, you are being pretty hackish in responses.

There's no end to the documentation of this, and as such, I don't understand its continual denial.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064347130 said:
And I haven't supported any of those adventures ... on the same grounds that I do here. It is morally, ethically, and legally wrong. You just can't seem to comprehend that. No matter what anyone else has done, it does not exculpate Russia in regards to Crimea and Ukraine. It's not a difficult concept ... the same international rules apply equally to everyone.

I am glad to hear that you recognise the illegality of US adventurism in those places!
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

By that twisted logic the USA has every right to invade and annex Cuba because of Guantanamo.
Seriously what right does Putin have to invade and annex part of another country and stop trying to pretend he didn't do that because even he admits he did.

It was quite logical for Putin to be concerned that Sevastopol was insecure and subject to NATO annexation. He unquestionably made the right move there. Loosing their warm water port, is simply no option for Russia.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It was quite logical for Putin to be concerned that Sevastopol was insecure and subject to NATO annexation. He unquestionably made the right move there. Loosing their warm water port, is simply no option for Russia.

Only it wasn't insecure, it wasn't even close to NATO annexation. There was no hint of anything happening to Sevastopol. If someone had tried something they would be in the right to defend themselves, NOT to annex part of another country.
Basically you are saying if someone makes up a story about something possibly happening somewhere then another country can invade and annex anyone they want.
Time to invade Cuba.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Only it wasn't insecure, it wasn't even close to NATO annexation. There was no hint of anything happening to Sevastopol. If someone had tried something they would be in the right to defend themselves, NOT to annex part of another country.
Basically you are saying if someone makes up a story about something possibly happening somewhere then another country can invade and annex anyone they want.
Time to invade Cuba.

The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The point being, Putin's concern was reasonable. To wait for any execution would then mean certain military confrontation. His move avoided that altogether. You need to understand something. Russia is not going to loose their warm water port, and they're not going to allow Ukraine to go NATO.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that NATO had plans to move on Sevastopol ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that NATO had plans to move on Sevastopol ?

Do you have anything that suggested I did. I said that Putin respond to US/EU involvement in Kiev, and apparently looked down the field and anticipated the possibility of this being another NATO expansion, and as such, a threat to Sevastopol. It would not be the kind of thing that they would take a wait and see approach. Securing it that moment would be far less expensive, and far less controversial than having to move in in the event that Ukraine had followed with a movement of military fortifications to Crimea and announced that those bases would no longer be available to Russia. You need to realise something, Russia is going to retain Sevastopol.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I am glad to hear that you recognise the illegality of US adventurism in those places!
Yet you still refuse to recognize Russian illegality and adventurism in Crimea/Ukraine. Without a quid-pro-quo that applies equally ... the international system for avoiding conflict is unworkable.
 
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