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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yes indeed, but its the scale of the corruption and theft in this instance that marks it out. The sums involved here represent sizeable percentages of the countries GDP hence the subsequent Interpol involvement

This is false. You think Petro Poroshenko and Yulia Tymoshenko are just as corrupt as Yanukovych. Hell it's even worse today.
 
Actually, the Erkko estate owns 30% plus in voting shares. You know like Murdoch owns a controlling majority of News Corp is established in Delware which only requires 33% ownership to establish majority.



It goes further back the Eljas Erkko to his father, Eero who was a leading member of the Young Finnish Party and then the National Progressive Party. Aatos Erkko wasn't anti-American in any real sense and sure as hell supported Finnish move to the EU and NATO because it benefited his company. Arguing against US hegemony and against the invasion of Iraq doesn't make you anti-American. It's Common sense. But it never stopped him working for the CIA. He was named by Robert Trumbull Crowley who use to be Assistant Deputy Director for Operations (second in charge of National Clandestine Service) named him (Aatos Erkko) as a source. A source for the CIA is a person who can influence CIA's position or be used by the CIA to push their position (print lies or fake news).

So here you are trying to hold up Moscow Times as your source without even know Aatos Erkko was a CIA source and named one by second in charge of the NCS.

Conspiratorial nonsense. Provide a quote from Crowley where he states in what capacity Erkko ever worked on behalf of the CIA. The "Crowley List" is nonsense.

Evaluation of the Crowley List of "CIA Sources"

Regardless the man's dead.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Nor did I say other wise, but nothing a I said was either.

Invade? Russian troops have always been stationed in Crimea since 1991 per agreement.

A) Your "vacationing Russian troops" story isn't going to fly with anyone with even a modicum of common sense comrade.

B) The war criminal Putin violated the terms of the Partition Treaty on the Status of the Black Sea Fleet on several points, namely it limited the number of Russian troops on the base, it required Russian troops to remain on the base, and it required them to check with Kiev every time new troops entered the Crimea

Article 4

1. The total number of personnel, the number of ships ships, weapons and equipment of the Black Sea Fleet Russian Federation who are pas territory of Ukraine, not will exceed the levels specified in the Agreement between Russian Federation and Ukraine on the parameters section Black Sea Fleet from the "28" in May 1997. 2. The Russian Party shall annually, before January 1, according to list agreed by the Parties shall inform the Ukrainian side of the total number of personnel and the main armament Russian Black Sea Fleet located at territory of Ukraine.

Article 6

1. Military units operate in places of deployment in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation, respect the sovereignty of Ukraine, observe its legislation and do not allow interference in the internal affairs Ukraine. 2. Economic activity of enterprises, organizations and institutions the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation shall not contradict the legislation of Ukraine. 3. Public authorities to respect the status of Ukraine military formations, shall take appropriate and consistent with their command safety measures personal composition, protection of property rights and property military units, and do not interfere in their internal life. 4. Relationships of persons belonging to the military formations and their families with legal and physical Ukraine faces is governed by the relevant locations of the Parties treaties and laws of Ukraine.

Article 15

1. Transport troops, persons belonging to the military formations, following a single procedure and in part of military formations, weapons, military equipment and other logistical resources, and guard specialists, their attendants, all modes of transport, which are executed in the interests of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation, implemented on a priority basis to meet border, customs and other types of state control when crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation. 2. Transport of dangerous goods and discharge are carried out in accordance with the signed December 23, 1993 in Ashgabat in within the Commonwealth of Independent States Agreement interstate transport of dangerous goods and discharge. 3. Special transport and military products appointments are made ​​in accordance with the contract May 26 1995 in Minsk within the Commonwealth of Independent States Agreement on the transport of goods and special products for military appointment. 4. Transportation using ships Navy, civilian agencies of the Russian courts Federation of Ukrainian ports were in compliance with Merchant Shipping Code of Ukraine, the corresponding port rules, rules of safety of navigation and environmental protection Fisheries and Ukraine. 5. Movement associated with the activities of military units outside their areas of deployment are carried out after coordination with the competent authorities of Ukraine.


Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet - Wikisource, the free online library
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

This is false. You think Petro Poroshenko and Yulia Tymoshenko are just as corrupt as Yanukovych. Hell it's even worse today.

If that is really the case I'd take your complaint up with Interpol then
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Nor did I say other wise, but nothing a I said was either.

Invade? Russian troops have always been stationed in Crimea since 1991 per agreement.

When they left their bases without their insignia or other and took over control of civilian Ukrainian parts of Crimea they WERE invading, followed by annexation.
So yeah they INVADED and continue to do so in eastern Ukraine.
I will ask you again
How does an internal Ukrainian situation give Putin the right to secretly invade and annex part of another country?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I'm more than happy to let others be the judge of that based on your input to date so perhaps you should stop digging. :cool:
I am happy with everyone else judging each and all of our comments, as that is cool.

:peace


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I know the difference between the two words, but trying to claim that both words are the same is the problem, as in claiming a person's opinion to be the facts is mixing those two definitions together when they are rightfully separate.

We all have the same facts and we just put our own interpretation of the facts and that makes them into opinions.

Even an "expert opinion" is still just an opinion based on the facts.

In this case for this thread then I like the OPINION of the Russian Republic in that their OPINION is that they are not going to be bullied by the USA.

And this does NOT mean that I am against my own USA, no, as I really wish that our USA would stop acting like the Bully of the world, and then we would have a better USA and a better world.

And yes of course that is just my own sincere OPINION indeed, and I wish that the USA would stop following the nasty opinions of the many American warmongers.


=========================================


When they left their bases without their insignia or other and took over control of civilian Ukrainian parts of Crimea they WERE invading, followed by annexation.
So yeah they INVADED and continue to do so in eastern Ukraine.
I will ask you again
How does an internal Ukrainian situation give Putin the right to secretly invade and annex part of another country?
That is because Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, including long standing historical ties, and a long connected border between the two Countries, and a huge connection with Russian people in the Ukraine.

It is the USA and Western Europe who are treading where they do not belong.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

That is because Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, including long standing historical ties, and a long connected border between the two Countries, and a huge connection with Russian people in the Ukraine.

Over 90 % of the Ukrainian people made it clear that their enthusiasm for pursuing Russias vested interests had changed in 1991. I know from my personal experience there over the years that that mindset has not changed

It is the USA and Western Europe who are treading where they do not belong.

As ever :yawn: please present your evidence for this unwanted 'treading' and address what the bulk Ukrainians want which is EU membership ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

That is because Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, including long standing historical ties, and a long connected border between the two Countries, and a huge connection with Russian people in the Ukraine.
A "vested interest" does not include any right to invade, annex, and destabilize a sovereign state.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Over 90 % of the Ukrainian people made it clear that their enthusiasm for pursuing Russias vested interests had changed in 1991. I know from my personal experience there over the years that that mindset has not changed

As ever :yawn: please present your evidence for this unwanted 'treading' and address what the bulk Ukrainians want which is EU membership ?
It is Russia (and Putin) who does not want that treading.

And I really see this as self evident, because there would not be a "crisis" otherwise.

And I realize that you want to argue from the Ukrainian position but I say it is no longer their decision, as this is now just a dispute between the USA and Russia and everyone else is on the sidelines.

That is why you are asking for evidence which does not exist :yawn: because it is not a matter about whatever the Ukrainians want, and that is because the Ukraine made itself irrelevant by bringing in the USA to stand in hostility against Russia.


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Simpleχity;1064339833 said:
A "vested interest" does not include any right to invade, annex, and destabilize a sovereign state.
That is your opinion, and maybe it is the opinion of the US gov, but Russia says otherwise, and the Russian opinion rules that issue.

Since Russia declares that is their interest then it is.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

That is your opinion, and maybe it is the opinion of the US gov, but Russia says otherwise, and the Russian opinion rules that issue.
Russia signed this international document...

Article 2

1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
Charter of the United Nations
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064339945 said:
Russia signed this international document...

Charter of the United Nations
You fail to tell if we the USA signed that too, as if we the USA are some how excluded from the equation or from the discussion.

I do not see how that charter affects only Russia.

And apparently if Russia signed it and Russia is engaged in the Ukraine as it is THEN then Russia must not see any contradiction there or elsewhere.

If we look at the title of this thread then it is the Russian President Putin who is making the peace proposal for the Ukraine, and such peace is the point and purpose on the UN Charter - IMO.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

That is because Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, including long standing historical ties, and a long connected border between the two Countries, and a huge connection with Russian people in the Ukraine.

It is the USA and Western Europe who are treading where they do not belong.

So if a country has had close ties with a neighbour they can invade and annex part of their neighbours country?
Is that your actual argument?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

You fail to tell if we the USA signed that too, as if we the USA are some how excluded from the equation or from the discussion.
You yourself brought up Russia's "vested interest", and you received a direct reply to that.

I do not see how that charter affects only Russia.
No one said it did.

And apparently if Russia signed it and Russia is engaged in the Ukraine as it is THEN then Russia must not see any contradiction there or elsewhere.
The majority of UN member states noted the contradiction ... UN Resolution 68/262.

If we look at the title of this thread then it is the Russian President Putin who is making the peace proposal for the Ukraine, and such peace is the point and purpose on the UN Charter - IMO.
I authored this thread, and no one accepted the self-serving proposal that Putin advanced.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064340342 said:
I authored this thread, and no one accepted the self-serving proposal that Putin advanced.
I do not quite get who you mean when you say that no one accepts the Putin peace proposal, because the powerful Republic of Russia is far from being no one and they accept it.

Plus there is now a peace plan in effect created by Russia along with Germany and France while the USA is not included in any talks of PEACE.

But I did go back to your opening post and now I recognize that the link report comes from a site called "The Moscow Times" and that meant nothing to me at first but later in this thread that News source had been discredited as Western propaganda and THAT figures.

As such I found a related link in the Yahoo News which is here = 40,000 attend Moscow pro-Putin rally - "Yankee go home"
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

So if a country has had close ties with a neighbour they can invade and annex part of their neighbours country?
Is that your actual argument?
No, of course I am not saying that.

This is just referring to this one (1) in-particular incident where the USA stirred up hostilities in the Ukraine and its neighbor Russia responded accordingly.

Every other situation and other Countries have their own different particulars.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

No, of course I am not saying that.
Sure sounds like it

This is just referring to this one (1) in-particular incident where the USA stirred up hostilities in the Ukraine and its neighbor Russia responded accordingly.
Well ignoring the fact that Putin actually created the crisis not the US, how does that equate to it being OK for Putin to invade and annex part of another country?

Every other situation and other Countries have their own different particulars.
Sure but how does an internal Ukrainian situation (caused by Putin) mean that Putin has the right to invade and annex part of the Ukraine?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Sure sounds like it
Well then you can chose to believe what is actually said, and what is printed in front of your face and eyes,

or else believe whatever you think you hear,

and apparently that must be a BIG dilemma for you. :comp:

Well ignoring the fact that Putin actually created the crisis not the US, how does that equate to it being OK for Putin to invade and annex part of another country?
Putin might have created the crisis for the USA and for the Ukraine, but our USA side of the so-called "crisis" would not have ever happened if the USA had only kept to minding our own business and not interfering with their business on the other side of the planet earth.

Sure but how does an internal Ukrainian situation (caused by Putin) mean that Putin has the right to invade and annex part of the Ukraine?
The so-called "right" is taken and it is not necessary to be given.

The Republic of Russia (not Putin) annexed the Crimea so the "right" is already past and done and finished, and Russia has realistic control over the western part of the Ukraine so that "right" too is already past and done and finished.

I realize that my fellow American claim to have some rights to this and rights to that, but in this Ukrainian case the American rights have been over ruled by Russia - and rightly so.

As such if you want to know whatever "rights" are now left over then that too is up to the powerful Republic of Russia because Russia makes the rules.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Well then you can chose to believe what is actually said, and what is printed in front of your face and eyes,

or else believe whatever you think you hear,

and apparently that must be a BIG dilemma for you. :comp:


Putin might have created the crisis for the USA and for the Ukraine, but our USA side of the so-called "crisis" would not have ever happened if the USA had only kept to minding our own business and not interfering with their business on the other side of the planet earth.


The so-called "right" is taken and it is not necessary to be given.

The Republic of Russia (not Putin) annexed the Crimea so the "right" is already past and done and finished, and Russia has realistic control over the western part of the Ukraine so that "right" too is already past and done and finished.

I realize that my fellow American claim to have some rights to this and rights to that, but in this Ukrainian case the American rights have been over ruled by Russia - and rightly so.

As such if you want to know whatever "rights" are now left over then that too is up to the powerful Republic of Russia because Russia makes the rules.

Putin IS Russia. HE decides what happens. HE decided to invade the Ukraine.
Russia didnt decide anything, the whole country didnt get together and vote on this, Putin decided.
I am still waiting for you to explain why it was OK for Putin to invade and annex part of the Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It is Russia (and Putin) who does not want that treading.

What treading please elaborate ?

And I really see this as self evident, because there would not be a "crisis" otherwise.

The only crisis here for Russia is Ukraines right to self determination being realised

And I realize that you want to argue from the Ukrainian position but I say it is no longer their decision, as this is now just a dispute between the USA and Russia and everyone else is on the sidelines.

No this is between Russia and Ukraine with everyone else being on the sidelines

That is why you are asking for evidence which does not exist :yawn: because it is not a matter about whatever the Ukrainians want, and that is because the Ukraine made itself irrelevant by bringing in the USA to stand in hostility against Russia.

Please qualify either Ukraines or Americas hostility towards Russia in any way shape or form ?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Mr Mearsheimer's credentials crush flog's so called rebuttals. Btw, aren't you tired of wasting your time on somebody who hasn't a clue about what has transpired in Ukraine? Lol.

More likely I'm tired of wasting my time on a pathological anti US bigot more like, that couldn't care less about the fate of Ukraine and I'm not even American ! :roll:
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Republic of Russia (not Putin) annexed the Crimea so the "right" is already past and done and finished, and Russia has realistic control over the western part of the Ukraine so that "right" too is already past and done and finished.
Russia annexed Crimea. Fine...whatever...hope those vodka-drinking jackoffs choke on it. Still doesn't explain how Putin has the right to invade/cause chaos in a sovereign nation.

As such if you want to know whatever "rights" are now left over then that too is up to the powerful Republic of Russia because Russia makes the rules.
Russia makes the rules? No they don't.
 
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