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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The facts are that the 2001 census clearly shows that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are "native Russian speakers" and about 70% of the Luhansk region.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Both of these info-graphs are compiled from the 2001 Ukraine Census data. The next Ukraine Census is scheduled for 2016.

Language - Aggregate data: Ukrainian Language/67% | Russian language/30%

Nativelanguage2001ua.PNG

Language data from the 2001 Census. Orange = Ukrainian language | Blue = Russian language. Courtesy: Wikipedia

Ethnicity - Aggregate data: Ukrainian ethnicity/77.5% | Russian ethnicity/17.2%

605px-Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainians.svg.png

Ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine by oblast 2001 census. Courtesy: Wikipedia
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064304000 said:
Both of these info-graphs are compiled from the 2001 Ukraine Census data. The next Ukraine Census is scheduled for 2016.

Language - Aggregate data: Ukrainian Language/67% | Russian language/30%

Nativelanguage2001ua.PNG

Language data from the 2001 Census. Orange = Ukrainian language | Blue = Russian language. Courtesy: Wikipedia

Ethnicity - Aggregate data: Ukrainian ethnicity/77.5% | Russian ethnicity/17.2%

605px-Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainians.svg.png

Ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine by oblast 2001 census. Courtesy: Wikipedia
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Why didn't you post the map of "native russian speakers"?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The facts are that the 2001 census clearly shows that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are "native Russian speakers" and about 70% of the Luhansk region.
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You just don't want to know that nearly all Ukrainians can speak Russian fluently ? You seem to think repetition will make your assertions correct however many posters show you they aren't. In that respect you are certainly not alone here sadly
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
You just don't want to know you ? You seem to think repetition will make your assertions correct however many posters show you they aren't. In that respect you are certainly not alone here sadly
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Look it up on the Wikipedia page on Ukraine if you don't believe me.
The way people are polarized about this conflict in a way that they want to disregard any facts that don't fit their narratieve is pretty sad.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Look it up on the Wikipedia page on Ukraine if you don't believe me.
The way people are polarized about this conflict in a way that they want to disregard any facts that don't fit their narratieve is pretty sad.
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I've been to Ukraine many times my friend and they nearly all can speak Russian fluently. That doesn't automatically mean they all want to be Russian which seems to be the point you are driving at :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
There are far too many here (based on US conduct over the last 15 years), prepared to find the US guilty until proven innocent. They've let their domestic cynicism blind their objectivity and thats very much the case with this whole Ukrainian business. This is now and always has been Russia's game not Americas. If the US really wanted Ukraine as badly as is alleged ,she could have gotten it for free 20 years ago when a bankrupt militarily prostrate Russia led by a drunk was in a far weaker position than today.
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As much as some on here may want to believe, the US hasn't been in the game to "take over" countries, especially in Europe. If that was something we really wanted to do, we could of been in control of all of Europe between the Marshall Plan and the Fall of the Soviet Union. But we didn't, because we believe in letting these countries go off on their own power. The issue with Ukraine though I believe is that at this point, the best compromise is to split the Ukraine and have Western Ukraine join NATO. At that point, if Russia is really on a bender to take over Europe again, then they'd have to War with the West to do it. And on the other hand, they get to protect the ethnic Russians in the process.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I've been to Ukraine many times my friend and they nearly all can speak Russian fluently. That doesn't automatically mean they all want to be Russian which seems to be the point you are driving at :roll:
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I am not driving at any point. The term "native speaker" does mean something. Does it mean that everybody who is a native Russian speaker wants to be annexed by Russia? Of course not. But what is equally ludicrous is the attempt by Some to assert that there are no regional differences in the Ukraine, that all of the Ukranian population support the current government in Kiev and there is no native rebellion in the East.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
As much as some on here may want to believe, the US hasn't been in the game to "take over" countries, especially in Europe. If that was something we really wanted to do, we could of been in control of all of Europe between the Marshall Plan and the Fall of the Soviet Union. But we didn't, because we believe in letting these countries go off on their own power. The issue with Ukraine though I believe is that at this point, the best compromise is to split the Ukraine and have Western Ukraine join NATO. At that point, if Russia is really on a bender to take over Europe again, then they'd have to War with the West to do it. And on the other hand, they get to protect the ethnic Russians in the process.
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Splitting the Ukraine is not a good idea. And to have part of Ukraine join NATO would be folly. NATO members should be Stable democracies, not failed states.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The facts are that the 2001 census clearly shows that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are "native Russian speakers" and about 70% of the Luhansk region.
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The data strongly suggests that the number of Russian-speakers is much higher than the number who declared themselves to be ethnic Russian. The only practical way to interpret this anomaly is that a significant number of Russian-speakers consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainian. Thus, although Russian is the majority language, the ethnic majority is Ukrainian.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064304019 said:
The data strongly suggests that the number of Russian-speakers is much higher than the number who declared themselves to be ethnic Russian. The only practical way to interpret this anomaly is that a significant number of Russian-speakers consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainian. Thus, although Russian is the majority language, the ethnic majority is Ukrainian.
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There are many ways to explain that, but I can't look inside people's heads. Fact is that the conflict in Ukraine is a lot more complicated and Messy and less of a black and white story then Some would like to make out.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Oh sure Russia had cronies just as Western nations did, I would never deny that. Everybody was working their angle. The protesters were Ukrainians, not Alabamans, but they were a couple hundred thousand, they didn't speak for 43,000,000 Ukrainians, A and B, driving the president from his office and firing upon his motorcade as he fled for his life is hardly the democratic model that you espouse else where's. Would you have supported an angry mob of half a million Americans driving Bush out of the WH and firing upon his motorcade as he fled because of the anger that there was over his lies surrounding the Iraq war and our senseless loss of blood and treasure? Hmm
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I'd of supported it if Bush was a cronies for another country. In my book, that counts as a treason.

I've asked others this, but I'm specifically addressing you with this because you have demonstrated that while we may disagree on a wide range of topics, you are at least fair minded for the most part and have shown intelligence in your post. I have proposed a compromise to this whole Ukrainian mess that I think is the only way to end the conflict and that is to break up Ukraine, have Russia do whatever it wants with the East and allow the West to join with NATO. If Russia really is concerned with it's counterparts in the region, then this gets them out from the rule of Kiev. On the other hand, if this is just Putin flexing Russian Military might, this puts a stop to the conflict unless Putin wants to expand this into a much larger conflict.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Look it up on the Wikipedia page on Ukraine if you don't believe me.
The way people are polarized about this conflict in a way that they want to disregard any facts that don't fit their narratieve is pretty sad.
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You are the one who is ignoring the facts which is why you won't address my posts directly, the wikipedia statistics have been provided in full, the overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukrainians speak Ukrainian, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian even two of the most ethnically Russian Oblasts of Luhansk and Donetsk are majority ethnic Ukrainians not Russian. But continue on with your denial of the facts which have been presented to you time and time again.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Splitting the Ukraine is not a good idea. And to have part of Ukraine join NATO would be folly. NATO members should be Stable democracies, not failed states.
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Look at the alternative: what's to stop Russia right now from continue to push and cost tens of thousands of lives until he's already effectively in control of Eastern Ukraine? Or, best case scenario, Kiev manages to push the rebels back into Russia and we'll just have those rebels continue to strike from the safety of Russia's borders? Given the choices, I think splitting up Ukraine is not just the only way to resolve this peacefully, but also to save lives.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
I'd of supported it if Bush was a cronies for another country. In my book, that counts as a treason.

I've asked others this, but I'm specifically addressing you with this because you have demonstrated that while we may disagree on a wide range of topics, you are at least fair minded for the most part and have shown intelligence in your post. I have proposed a compromise to this whole Ukrainian mess that I think is the only way to end the conflict and that is to break up Ukraine, have Russia do whatever it wants with the East and allow the West to join with NATO. If Russia really is concerned with it's counterparts in the region, then this gets them out from the rule of Kiev. On the other hand, if this is just Putin flexing Russian Military might, this puts a stop to the conflict unless Putin wants to expand this into a much larger conflict.
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Much better to maintain Ukraine As it is now (that is without Crimea and Sevastopol) and turn it into a Federalized and neutralized state.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
There are many ways to explain that, but I can't look inside people's heads.
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Explain the fact that the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Much better to maintain Ukraine As it is now (that is without Crimea and Sevastopol) and turn it into a Federalized and neutralized state.
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No not much better to recognize the war crime of the annexation of the Crimea as legitimate, better to continue sanctions against Russia until they're back sitting in bread lines until they end their illegal occupation.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
You are the one who is ignoring the facts which is why you won't address my posts directly, the wikipedia statistics have been provided in full, the overwhelming majority of Eastern Ukrainians speak Ukrainian, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian even two of the most ethnically Russian Oblasts of Luhansk and Donetsk are majority ethnic Ukrainians not Russian. But continue on with your denial of the facts which have been presented to you time and time again.
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Your statement that the overwhelming majority of people in the Eastern Ukraine are Ukranian speakers is simply a lie. The moderators seem not to be interested in calming you down. For the record, you are Nothing but a propagandistic liar and I refuse to debate with people who can't face the facts.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Your statement that the overwhelming majority of people in the Eastern Ukraine are Ukranian speakers is simply a lie. The moderators seem not to be interested in calming you down. For the record, you are Nothing but a propagandistic liar and refuse to debate with people who can't face the facts.
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You sir are the propagandist and the liar, I have provided the statistics proving that the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian, you laughably provided the two examples of Luhansk and Donetsk only to be shown that those are both majority ethnically Ukrainian you can't address this point and will continue deflecting but everyone on this forum can see for themselves that you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
Much better to maintain Ukraine As it is now (that is without Crimea and Sevastopol) and turn it into a Federalized and neutralized state.
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You're never going to have it be a Neutral state. I'm telling you, either the Russians move in and take as much of the Ukraine as they please or the Ukrainians beat them back to the border of Russia, where either the Russians officially get involved or simply passively support the rebels and give them cover behind their borders. If you see another way, I'd love to hear it.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
You're never going to have it be a Neutral state. I'm telling you, either the Russians move in and take as much of the Ukraine as they please or the Ukrainians beat them back to the border of Russia, where either the Russians officially get involved or simply passively support the rebels and give them cover behind their borders. If you see another way, I'd love to hear it.
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I told you the way I see. Russia Will nót seek to invade and take over Ukraine. That would create more problems for them than it would solve. Neither does Ukraine have a future within the EU or NATO, unless you want to destroy the EU and NATO.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I've been to Ukraine many times my friend and they nearly all can speak Russian fluently.
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In my experience, there are a number of anomalies. For example, Russian is predominant in the city of Kharkiv, but not in Kharkivskaya Oblast itself. One finds this also to be the case in the city of Odessa and Odesskaya Oblast. One can go to any region of Ukraine and speak Russian without either persecution or comprehension problems. Most syllabus courses in Ukrainian universities are offered in three languages; Ukrainian, Russian, and English. English is considered an international language and is provided to attract foreign students. It is far less costly to obtain a degree in Ukraine than it would be in Britain, the US, or India.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

SBu said:
Whether or not it makes me feel better is irrelevant. The fact is that they are not 'banned'. It's like saying pigs can fly. It just isn't so.
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I haven't disputed that the ban isn't universally accepted.

The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer and stockpile of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. The convention was adopted on 30 May 2008 in Dublin,[6] and was opened for signature on 3 December 2008 in Oslo. It entered into force on 1 August 2010, six months after it was ratified by 30 states.[2] As of January 2015, 108 states have signed the treaty and 89 have ratified it or acceded to it.[3]
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Fleming said:
The facts are that about 75% of the population of the Donetsk region are Russian-speakers and about 70% of the population of the Luhansk region. The percentages are obviously even higher in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
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Yep, whatever happened to the virtue of self determination? A little hypocrisy huh.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Hamster Buddha said:
As much as some on here may want to believe, the US hasn't been in the game to "take over" countries, especially in Europe. If that was something we really wanted to do, we could of been in control of all of Europe between the Marshall Plan and the Fall of the Soviet Union. But we didn't, because we believe in letting these countries go off on their own power. The issue with Ukraine though I believe is that at this point, the best compromise is to split the Ukraine and have Western Ukraine join NATO. At that point, if Russia is really on a bender to take over Europe again, then they'd have to War with the West to do it. And on the other hand, they get to protect the ethnic Russians in the process.
Click to expand...

Seems to me Putin would jump on that compromise.
 
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