U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

SBu · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
There you go again. It's the Ukrainian army using banned weapons and killing people.

(Berlin) – Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions | Human Rights Watch

I WONDER WHY YOU GUYS SWALLOW THE CAMEL AND CHOKE ON THE FRUIT FLY?????

It's my understanding that Ukraine never signed or ratified the 'Convention on Cluster munitions'. Neither has Russia, China, or the US by the way. The only states that are really worth mentioning that have signed it are Germany, France, Britain, and Australia. The rest are fluff unless you think there is a big risk from Botswana.

So when you say "banned" weapons, it really depends on how you look at it. Not banned for Ukraine because they didn't sign it, or banned because a handful of powerful nations signed it and a somewhat large number of smaller less powerful states signed it.

Just pointing out that just because you may see/hear some media outlets use that term, doesn't mean that it is precisely true...or even mostly true for countries around the world.

89 parties to the convention out of 196(ish) total countries, so a little less than half.

It would, on the other hand, be banned to have targeted civilians intentionally (although the inherent right to self defense would allow to fire back at enemy fire originating from a populated area...although the legality can get murky here).

Montecresto · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
See rule 3 of the Forum posting guidlines.

For the umpteenth time now. Prove the US financed these protesters to overthrow their government ?

There have been two internationally monitored elections since that time and the result didn't go your way even had the 9% of Ukrainians living in the contested areas had been allowed to vote

Obviously looking at public opinion today Yanukovych got that one way wrong along with just about everything else that got him toppled :shock:
MAP enquiry is a long way short of a formal application for NATO membership which has to get the approval of all member states before consideration. In Ukraines case this would have been unlikely even in 2008

And there you go AGAIN making **** up!! I never said that the US financed anything. And what the hell are you talking about, results going my way??

Dude, I'm through with you. Believe as you wish. This is Putins momentum and there's no changing that,

Montecresto · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

SBu said:
It's my understanding that Ukraine never signed or ratified the 'Convention on Cluster munitions'. Neither has Russia, China, or the US by the way. The only states that are really worth mentioning that have signed it are Germany, France, Britain, and Australia. The rest are fluff unless you think there is a big risk from Botswana.

So when you say "banned" weapons, it really depends on how you look at it. Not banned for Ukraine because they didn't sign it, or banned because a handful of powerful nations signed it and a somewhat large number of smaller less powerful states signed it.

Just pointing out that just because you may see/hear some media outlets use that term, doesn't mean that it is precisely true...or even mostly true for countries around the world.

89 parties to the convention out of 196(ish) total countries, so a little less than half.

It would, on the other hand, be banned to have targeted civilians intentionally (although the inherent right to self defense would allow to fire back at enemy fire originating from a populated area...although the legality can get murky here).

If that makes you feel better fine. The US, Russia and China of course aren't signatories because they all manufacture them and pedal them around the world, money man. The US caught a lot of flack from human rights groups for using them in Iraq. They are very indiscriminate, was the reason for the ban.

flogger · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
And there you go AGAIN making **** up!! I never said that the US financed anything.

So if the US didn't arm or finance the protesters how is it they 'backed' or 'supported' them in any productive sense of the word ? This is a pretty fundamental point because in the absence of this how then could Russia have allegedly been 'provoked' by the US into the action it is now taking ?

And what the hell are you talking about, results going my way??

I mean the great bulk of Ukrainians have now voted twice for the current administration in internationally monitored elections since the 'undemocratic' overthrow of the Yanukovych regime. Deal with it

Dude, I'm through with you.Believe as you wish.

'Dude' I don't need to 'believe' anything. The facts work just fine for me

This is Putins momentum and there's no changing that,

I'll bet you used to be the guy that cheered on the bullies at school too right ? :roll:

SBu · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
If that makes you feel better fine. The US, Russia and China of course aren't signatories because they all manufacture them and pedal them around the world, money man. The US caught a lot of flack from human rights groups for using them in Iraq. They are very indiscriminate, was the reason for the ban.

Whether or not it makes me feel better is irrelevant. The fact is that they are not 'banned'. It's like saying pigs can fly. It just isn't so.

face your · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
More of your damn lies. Ukraine did ask, and did apply. The man that Ukraine elected in 2010 decided to align with Russia and withdrew that request. Then the US supported an angry mob of a few hundred thousand in a country of 40 odd million who turned to violence

Fascist big lie propaganda from start to finish, it was Russia that started all of this Yanukovych withdrew from the EU association agreement because the cult of personality authoritarian tyrant Putin waged economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination:

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

This prompted peaceful protests to join the EU the majority of Ukrainians supported both entrance into the EU and the EUROMAIDAN protests:

Public opinion about Euromaidan

According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[126][127][128] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[126][129] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[130]

In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[6] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[130] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[131] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[130]

According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[132]

In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[133]

A study conducted at Harvard University examining public opinion in regular and social media found that 74% of Russian speakers in Ukraine supported the Euromaidan movement, and a quarter opposed.[134]

Public opinion about joining the EU

According to an August 2013 study by a Donetsk company, Research & Branding Group,[135] 49% of Ukrainians supported signing the Association Agreement, while 31% opposed it and the rest had not decided yet. However, in a December poll by the same company, only 30% claimed that terms of the Association agreement would be beneficial for the Ukrainian economy, while 39% said they were unfavourable for Ukraine. In the same poll, only 30% said the opposition would be able to stabilise the society and govern the country well, if coming to power, while 37% disagreed.[136]

Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favoured joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?"[137][138]

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.[139] On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[140]

In December 2013, then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov refuted the pro-EU poll numbers claiming that many polls posed questions about Ukraine joining the EU, and that Ukraine had never been invited to join the Union, but only to sign the Association Agreement.[141][142]

Euromaidan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The claim that the protesters were funded, armed, or directed by the US is absolutely false:

US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>

face your · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

<<<CONTINUED>>>

Montecresto said:
More of your damn lies. Ukraine did ask, and did apply. The man that Ukraine elected in 2010 decided to align with Russia and withdrew that request. Then the US supported an angry mob of a few hundred thousand in a country of 40 odd million who turned to violence

EUROMAIDAN was completely peaceful until the fascist Yanukovych at the direct behest of Putin sent in his Nazi Gestapo jack booted Berkut thugs on November 30th to mass murder innocent citizens for having the audacity to peacefully assemble to protest their government for a redress of grievances:

Putin pressured Yanukovych to crack down on the Maidan protesters. Ukrainska Pravda found that the notebooks of Yanukovych's security chief, Kostyantyn Kobzar, detail a private meeting between the two leaders at Putin's residence at Valdai on January 8, as the Maidan protests continued to grow.

What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled | New Republic

Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions
Violent dispersal of pro-European protesters sparks opposition demand for trade embargo

Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions | World news | The Guardian

The assertions that the snipers were protesters rather than Yanukovych Russian backed jack booted thugs is pure propaganda:

15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.

"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.

"I was a doctor helping to save people on the square. There were 15 people killed on the first day by snipers. They were shot directly to the heart, brain and arteries. There were more than 40 the next day, 12 of them died in my arms.

"Our nation has to ask the question who were the killers, who asked them to come to Ukraine. We need good answers on the basis of expertise."

Mr Paet's assertion that an opposition figure was behind the Maidan massacre was not one she could share.

"I think you can only say something like this on the basis of fact," she said. "Its not correct and its not good to do this. It should be based on fact."

She said the new government in Kiev had assured her a criminal investigation had begun but that she had not direct contact with it so far.

"They told me they have begun a criminal process and if they say that I believe them. The police have not given me any information on it."

Ukraine crisis: March 5 as it happened - Telegraph

Ukraine's special police shot dead dozens of anti-government protesters in Kiev in February, an initial government inquiry has found.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told reporters 12 members of the Berkut police had been identified and three of them had been already arrested.

The inquiry relates to the shootings on Instytutska street in Kiev, where 76 people were killed on 18-20 February......

Meanwhile, Ukrainian Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaychenko said that Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) operatives had been involved in planning operations against the protesters. ....

BBC News - Special police shot Kiev protesters, inquiry says

This resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory:

Ukraine’s parliament votes to oust president; former prime minister is freed from prison
Ukraine

face your · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
This backfired though, Crimea is gone and as they (the Ukrainian army) continues to do things like use banned weapons like DC cluster bombs, they further loose credibility while Russia gains.

Laughable nonsense, Russia is a international pariah state, their economy is collapsing as the Ruble plummets to record lows on a literally daily basis, Putin is an internationally recognized war criminal and the illegal invasion, occupation, and annexation of the Crimea has been condemned by the UNGA and the UNSC. Your assertion that it is the Ukrainian military committing war crimes is a proven lie, it is actually the Russian soldiers and their Russian terrorist proxies who are mass murdering civilians, they have already committed ethnic cleansing of ethnic Ukrainians in the Crimea through numerous pogroms just like their did to ethnic Georgians in South Ossettia. This has been proven by the United Nations Human Rights investigators in the Eastern Ukraine:

“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”

They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0[/QUOTE]

Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia was the removal of Georgians, which was conducted in South Ossetia and other territories occupied by Russian and South Ossetian forces,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] which happened during and after the 2008 Russia–Georgia war.[8]

The Human Rights Watch concluded that the "South Ossetian forces sought to ethnically cleanse" the Georgian-populated areas.[9] In 2009, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe resolutions condemned "the ethnic cleansing and other human rights violations in South Ossetia, as well as the failure of Russia and the de facto authorities to bring these practices to a halt and their perpetrators to justice".[10] According to the September 2009 report of the European Union-sponsored Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia, "several elements suggest the conclusion that ethnic cleansing was carried out against ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia both during and after the August 2008 conflict."[11]

Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

face your · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.

Which territory did Obama have the US invade and annex in overt violation of the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter?

face your · Feb 11, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
:attn1: See below:

I have already given you the answer before, and you ignore it when reality will never ignore the truth.

No person nor any Country is an island, as we all have neighbors who have a say in our business whether anyone likes it or not.

The Ukraine does not have any right or option to become hostile to its neighbor Russia without facing the repercussions.

The Ukraine under international law as a sovereign state is free through self determination to join any economic or defensive organization they wish, Russia on the other hand has absolutely no right to invade and annex the sovereign territory of another state, that is an overt violation of the UN Charter. The repercussions for the overt war crime committed by Putin and the Russian Federation are now being felt with the collapse of the Russian economy.

The resolution was rightfully rejected and now it is dead.

The UNSC resolution was unanimously accepted, Russia was the soul no vote even China abstained, your assertion that Russia's veto means the resolution never happened is laughable. The UNGA resolution was accepted by the majority of the international community.

The sanctions against Russia are unjust and naive, so yes they are tolerating our immature hostilities.

The illegal invasion and annexation of the sovereign territory of another state is a war crime, economic sanctions are completely just and completely in line with international law, and they are justly supported by the vast majority of the international community, Putin has no choice but to "tolerate" these sanctions because he is only a threat to his peaceful neighbors, he is nothing but another in a long list of impotent tin pot dictators, but by all means enjoy those bread lines comrade.

And prior to 1945 the USA had unjust sanctions against Japan

The sanctions against Japan were completely just as Japan has illegally invaded and committed genocide in Manchuria, China, and Indo-China.

which prompted Japan to launch their first strike against our Pearl Harbor.

Worked out well for them didn't it?

So the USA might do better if we learn from history, instead of repeating our mistakes.

The West is not repeating the mistake of Neville Chamberlin by tolerating a fascist little dictator invade and ethnically cleanse their neighbors.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

NIMBY said:
Since Obama has killed 50,000 Ukranians, right?
Since yer ranting all over DEM Presidents heading back to FDR, don't you think you missed a few GOP criminals along the way.
Ever hear of Iran-Contra?
Or Iraq last decade?

Both sides have ENCOURAGED such behavior that has lead to the deaths of whatever number you want to quote of Ukrainians, Russians, Polish, Croats, an American and another dozen or so nationalities who joined each side. IMF encouraged it when IMF said you control all of Ukraine or no soup for you. Reason for that is because the natural resources the IMF exploits (though a different debate) sits in Rebel controlled areas.

Yes, Republicans are just as guilty as Democrats because they both become very anti-democratic and become the bane of peoples rights whenever it suits them. Rat bastards will support one tyrant towing their line, but toss another to the wolves and we end up with wolves who don't forget history and end up poking us (think Libya).

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Both sides have ENCOURAGED such behavior that has lead to the deaths of whatever number you want to quote of Ukrainians, Russians, Polish, Croats, an American and another dozen or so nationalities who joined each side. IMF encouraged it when IMF said you control all of Ukraine or no soup for you. Reason for that is because the natural resources the IMF exploits (though a different debate) sits in Rebel controlled areas.

Yes, Republicans are just as guilty as Democrats because they both become very anti-democratic and become the bane of peoples rights whenever it suits them. Rat bastards will support one tyrant towing their line, but toss another to the wolves and we end up with wolves who don't forget history and end up poking us (think Libya).

The only guilty party in this scenario is the internationally recognized war criminal Putin, joining an economic association is not Casus Belli to illegally invade, occupy, annex, and ethnically cleanse the territory of your neighbors.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Then you haven't read up on LBJ or FDR who both PURPOSELY started wars for their own gains and against public support. FDR decided to piss off the Japanese knowing damn well that would = Pearl Harbor or Wake Island.

A trade embargo in response to Japanese invasions, annexations, and atrocities in Manchuria, China, and Indo-China was not Casus Belli for the Pearl Harbor attacks.

LBJ lied about Gulf of Tonkin.

There was one attack on U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, the second attack was in actuality ghost radar signals.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Ukraine wasn't united. There has always been (in this case 23 years) of differences between Western and Eastern Ukraine.

There are differences between the Southern and Northern states of America that doesn't mean we aren't a United country, the Ukraine was an internationally recognized sovereign state and that includes the Crimea, the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian, 38 million vs. 8.5 million.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

NIMBY said:
Those tens of thousands of merchant seaman who were sunk by Hitler would beg to differ with you.
You know, the Nazis allied with Japan.
How long would you have allowed the Japanese to expand without cutting off their oil?

You mean the merchant marines who were considered by laws of the sea as targets because the US Government used them to ship weapons and supplies to the UK before 1941? Never mind the fact the US proclaimed neutrality but ended up give lend lease and cash carry deals to Soviet Union, China, UK and France.

US didn't just cut off the "oil". A memo was drafted called the McCollum Memo, it is 8 points on how the US could provoke Japan into attacking the US.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
So why can't they support DNR and LNR's right to bugger off from the **** hole called Ukraine?

`Russia can annex Eastern Ukraine in overt violation of the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, and decades of international case law as soon as China can annex Eastern Russia.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
You mean the merchant marines who were considered by laws of the sea as targets because the US Government used them to ship weapons and supplies to the UK before 1941? Never mind the fact the US proclaimed neutrality but ended up give lend lease and cash carry deals to Soviet Union, China, UK and France.

Engaging in free trade is not a violation of neutrality, unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic on the other hand was an overt violation of the laws of the seas.

US didn't just cut off the "oil". A memo was drafted called the McCollum Memo, it is 8 points on how the US could provoke Japan into attacking the US.

The McCollum memo contained an eight-part plan to counter rising Japanese power over East Asia:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek
D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient
F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific[,] in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil
H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire

McCollum memo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

None of which was Casus Belli for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
There are differences between England Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland but we are still called the United Kingdom nonetheless

Seriously? There was just a vote in Scotland last November about Scottish Independence. 45% (1.6 million) of the Scottish population voted to leave the UK. Then let's not forget about the never ending issues in Northern Ireland in which has even a longer history which includes ideas such as Home Rule, demands for separate Kingdoms by guys like Daniel O' Connell who called for the end of the Acts of the Union (1800) during the Catholic emancipation movement in the UK.

Yes, you are called the United Kingdom but you aren't that "united". Devolution has taken place in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and even England with the Greater London Authority. Even Winston Churchill supported the idea of giving England it's own Parliament or dividing into regional parliaments and Royal Commissions have been set up over the issues as well. Hell even Cornwall is getting into the game and Labour has made some big promises to them.

You know what the leaves the UK as? An economic union with a federal system and autonomy.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064300075 said:
Did you look at the 2014 Election map of Ukraine? You can view it below...

LOL.. yeah... turn out was what in Eastern Ukraine?

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
Obama and NATO hasn't done what Putin has done in Ukraine.

No, they just do it to Muslim countries.

Fleming · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
Engaging in free trade is not a violation of neutrality, unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic on the other hand was an overt violation of the laws of the seas.

.

True. The US very happily and very effectively engaged in the same sort of violation in the Pacific in iTS war against Japan.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
There are differences between the Southern and Northern states of America that doesn't mean we aren't a United country, the Ukraine was an internationally recognized sovereign state and that includes the Crimea, the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian not Russian, 38 million vs. 8.5 million.

Yes, United States of America is united but united with devolved power to the States. There is no devolved power in Ukraine hence these issues being a big deal. Also, Northern States and Southern States fought each other for 4 years over some very key issues (despite the line of "Slavery", it was about the power of the Federal Government).

Ukraine hasn't had that war until last year. Let them fight it out. Let them figure out themselves.

austrianecon · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

face said:
Engaging in free trade is not a violation of neutrality, unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic on the other hand was an overt violation of the laws of the seas.

It's not free trade if you are ARMING one side and claiming neutrality to the others. Did Japan and Germany get US weapons? No.. So it was an act of war. Btw, there was no such thing as Free trade back then, everything was tariff based.

face said:
None of which was Casus Belli for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Wow.. so commodity and trade is not a good reason to go to war.. Oh wait.. I see you are stuck with POST WWII definitions from the UN. Guess you know very little about history.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Ukraine hasn't had that war until last year. Let them fight it out. Let them figure out themselves.

Unfortunately that is impossible because Russia has invaded them and annexed their territory, this isn't a civil war it is a Russian invasion of a sovereign state.

face your · Feb 12, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
It's not free trade if you are ARMING one side and claiming neutrality to the others. Did Japan and Germany get US weapons? No.. So it was an act of war.

Please provide the provisions of the Hague Conventions or any other relevant treaty under which selling arms to a belligerent engaged in a war against another belligerent is an act of war. Tell me did the Soviet Union commit an act of war against the US when it provided arms to the North Koreans and the North Vietnamese?

Btw, there was no such thing as Free trade back then, everything was tariff based.

Reciprocal Tariff Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow.. so commodity and trade is not a good reason to go to war.. Oh wait.. I see you are stuck with POST WWII definitions from the UN. Guess you know very little about history.

Ah I see so you are in a world where engaging in trade and not engaging in trade are acts of war. :roll:

U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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