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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Perhaps a reminder of Russias transgressions here might be in order. Putin in his military aggression has violated the UN Charter, the Helsinki Act of 1975, the Treaty on the Dissolution of the Soviet Union of 1991, the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997, or the Russian-Ukrainian Sevastopol Base Treaty of 1997, and so on.

Where is the commensurate Western or Ukrainian trangression.... of any kind
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
This flawed opinion piece was comprehensively rebutted no less than three times since which (unsurprisingly) you chose not to read

So why is this opinion proof of anything ?
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The truth is not really a matter of opinion.

And denials of the truth does not change it from being true.

Clearly we live in the USA (or in the West) so the popular propaganda is being dumped onto us from many directions, and we are trying to separate the lies from the reality, and as such you have been rightfully informed and your denial is just fooling your self.

So you asked for proof = "I DARE YOU" - so you have the proof and you are just denying your own face and eyes.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
The truth is not really a matter of opinion.
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Correct

And denials of the truth does not change it from being true.
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Niether does your wishful thinking make it so

Clearly we live in the USA (or in the West) so the popular propaganda is being dumped onto us from many directions, and we are trying to separate the lies from the reality, and as such you have been rightfully informed and your denial is just fooling your self.
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I cannot think of a single verifiable fact that you have presented all the way through this thread. You are simply here to beat up on the West and more specifically the US

So you asked for proof = "I DARE YOU" - so you have the proof and you are just denying your own face and eyes
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And the opinion piece (which is I presume the straw you are so desperately clutching at) was comprehensively rebutted no less than four times

In case you missed them here are some undeniable facts ... again

'Putin in his military aggression has violated the UN Charter, the Helsinki Act of 1975, the Treaty on the Dissolution of the Soviet Union of 1991, the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997, or the Russian-Ukrainian Sevastopol Base Treaty of 1997'

Now cite me the Wests culpability ?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
All I was shown was an opinion. On this issue (Ukraine) Putin isn't the evil you're painting.
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Providing weapons to a proxy army that is destroying a nation isn't evil?
Continuing to give arms to said proxy army after they shot down a civilian airliner which killed 300 people isn't evil?
Threatening to launch World War 3 because the rest of the world wants to help Ukraine defend itself from Russian aggression isn't evil?

What would constitute evil by Putin in your eyes?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
On the issue of Ukraine, Putin is right and you will see the same reaction to any attempted expansion of NATO influence eastward.
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NATO isn't forcing itself anywhere. If the government of Ukraine wishes to join NATO, that is their right. Putin can object to it, but he can not destroy Ukraine because of it.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Ukraine is composed of 40 odd million people, a chunk of which in the Far East are demonstrating what they want, and it isn't what your pushing.
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If that chunk want to join Russia, fine. Putin can send in planes to fly them to the Motherland. However, destroying Ukraine to join Russia is not a sane way of going about it.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.
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Obama and NATO hasn't done what Putin has done in Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
NATO isn't forcing itself anywhere. If the government of Ukraine wishes to join NATO, that is their right. Putin can object to it, but he can not destroy Ukraine because of it.
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Ukraine has niether asked for nor been offered NATO membership. This paranoia is all Putins

Ironically though if Ukraine does survive it will now be desperate to join after what has been done to it
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I've posted a rebuttal to your opinion piece already



No this is the opinion of one person. It has not been endorsed by others within this group. Here is another opinion and comprehensive rebuttal from someone at least as well qualified

The Ukraine crisis according to John J. Mearsheimer: Impeccable Logic, Wrong Facts

And another still

Why John J. Mearsheimer is Wrong on Ukraine | Duck of Minerva
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Wrong again, it is endorsed by the CFR, and posted on their website. And all of your whining isn't going to change the results so don't be thinking you'll see a return of Crimea, they are largely happy thank you very much.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
Providing weapons to a proxy army that is destroying a nation isn't evil?
Continuing to give arms to said proxy army after they shot down a civilian airliner which killed 300 people isn't evil?
Threatening to launch World War 3 because the rest of the world wants to help Ukraine defend itself from Russian aggression isn't evil?

What would constitute evil by Putin in your eyes?
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To the bolded, if that is evil, then the arms that the US has been providing to its proxies in Syria which have and are destroying that country are evil? See how that works. Though I suspect that like the rest of the patronising folk you'll argue that that's different. Because we all know that anytime the US does it, its different. Oh, and right too!
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Wrong again, it is endorsed by the CFR, and posted on their website. And all of your whining isn't going to change the results so don't be thinking you'll see a return of Crimea, they are largely happy thank you very much.
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The central assertion of your opinion piece was that NATO was seeking enlargement and expansion into Ukraine. At no time since Ukrainian independence has Ukraine either asked for nor been offerred membership nor was it likely to be on the horizon due to Article 5 of the NATO mandate. Nor (unlike Russia) has the West broken any treaty stipulation regarding Ukrainian borders sovereignty nor right to self determination of all Ukrainians

If you had bothered reading the rebuttals (even those on your own link) would have made this clear
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
NATO isn't forcing itself anywhere. If the government of Ukraine wishes to join NATO, that is their right. Putin can object to it, but he can not destroy Ukraine because of it.
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Putin can do whatever the **** he wants and he won't be listening to your protestations. As to NATO, they have expanded a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union. Putin has been protesting it for years and I don't believe you'll be seeing any more of it. Furthermore, the elected president of Ukraine did choose and signed a deal with Russia, which is when the **** hit the fan in the US/EU. As has been pointed out in the story over at the CFR's website. You can find it in post #369
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
The central assertion of your opinion piece was that NATO was seeking enlargement and expansion into Ukraine. At no time since Ukrainian independence has Ukraine either asked for nor been offerred membership nor was it likely to be on the horizon due to Article 5 of the NATO mandate. Nor (unlike Russia) has the West broken any treaty stipulation regarding Ukrainian borders sovereignty nor right to self determination of all Ukrainians

If you had bothered reading the rebuttals (even those on your own link) would have made this clear
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I will overlook the fact that you apparently are unaware of the American Council on Foreign Relations and the weight and credibility as well as resume' that its members and associates carry. Continue to whin about this flogger as you will, but Putins got the upper hand on this and the momentum and you will not see Russia allowing any further expansion of NATO. Now if expanding NATO is that god damn important to you, then you'd best prepare yourselves for conflict you haven't seen in decades.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
As to NATO, they have expanded a dozen times since the collapse of the old Soviet Union.
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So why didn't they do so 20 years ago when it would have been so much easier for them ?

the elected president of Ukraine did choose and signed a deal with Russia, which is when the **** hit the fan in the US/EU. As has been pointed out in the story over at the CFR's website. You can find it in post #369
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And who's assertions have been rebutted multiple times on post #376
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
I will overlook the fact that you apparently are unaware of the American Council on Foreign Relations and the weight and credibility as well as resume' that its members and associates carry.
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Some of the authors I linked were just as qualified to comment

Continue to whin about this flogger as you will, but Putins got the upper hand on this and the momentum and you will not see Russia allowing any further expansion of NATO.
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But NATO membership was never an issue here. It had never been asked for nor offered to Ukraine so that is a strawman argument

Now if expanding NATO is that god damn important to you, then you'd best prepare yourselves for conflict you haven't seen in decades.
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I care about a smaller nation being attacked by a bigger one for daring to assert its free will in hoping for EU membership . Nothing more
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Some of the authors I linked were just as qualified to comment



But NATO membership was never an issue here. It had never been asked for nor offered to Ukraine so that is a strawman argument



I care about a smaller nation being attacked by a bigger one for daring to assert its free will in hoping for EU membership . Nothing more
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If I remember correctly Ukraine applied for membership in the 1990s.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

joG said:
If I remember correctly Ukraine applied for membership in the 1990s.
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Here is the history of Ukraine - NATO ties

Ukraine

They got close but no formal application to join has ever been agreed upon mostly due to western intransigence it has to be said. Interestingly as of polls taken in November 2014 only 25% of Ukrainians now oppose NATO membership so the war has definately had an effect on public opinion
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
If that chunk want to join Russia, fine. Putin can send in planes to fly them to the Motherland. However, destroying Ukraine to join Russia is not a sane way of going about it.
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There you go again. It's the Ukrainian army using banned weapons and killing people.

(Berlin) – Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions | Human Rights Watch

I WONDER WHY YOU GUYS SWALLOW THE CAMEL AND CHOKE ON THE FRUIT FLY?????
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Here is the history of Ukraine - NATO ties

Ukraine

They got close but no formal application to join has ever been agreed upon mostly due to western intransigence it has to be said
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I would have to read up, but MAP is the procedure new members undergo in order to join Nato. If I remember a European member or two stalled the process.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

joG said:
I would have to read up, but MAP is the procedure new members undergo in order to join Nato. If I remember a European member or two stalled the process.
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Obviously most Ukrainians are uber keen to join now but that seems unlikely in the prevailing circumstances
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Obviously most Ukrainians are uber keen to join now but that seems unlikely in the prevailing circumstances
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letting them in now would be like insuring the while it was burning.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Obviously most Ukrainians are uber keen to join now but that seems unlikely in the prevailing circumstances
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Since Poroshenko et ak are in with 18% of eligible voters, then it is a given that the same 18% want EU membership.
What about the other 82%?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Here is the history of Ukraine - NATO ties

Ukraine

They got close but no formal application to join has ever been agreed upon mostly due to western intransigence it has to be said. Interestingly as of polls taken in November 2014 only 25% of Ukrainians now oppose NATO membership so the war has definately had an effect on public opinion
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More of your damn lies. Ukraine did ask, and did apply. The man that Ukraine elected in 2010 decided to align with Russia and withdrew that request. Then the US supported an angry mob of a few hundred thousand in a country of 40 odd million who turned to violence and began to burn government buildings and forced the duly elected president from his office and fired upon his motorcade as he fled for his life. Only morons believe that's democracy, and nobody posting here that supported it would accept it in their own countries. This backfired though, Crimea is gone and as they (the Ukrainian army) continues to do things like use banned weapons like DC cluster bombs, they further loose credibility while Russia gains.

Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1994.[1] Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] In 2010 the Ukrainian parliament voted to exclude "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[6]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

More of your damn lies.
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See rule 3 of the Forum posting guidlines.

Then the US supported an angry mob of a few hundred thousand in a country of 40 odd million who turned to violence and began to burn government buildings and forced the duly elected president from his office and fired upon his motorcade as he fled for his life.
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For the umpteenth time now. Prove the US financed these protesters to overthrow their government ?

Only morons believe that's democracy, and nobody posting here that supported it would accept it in their own countries.
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There have been two internationally monitored elections since that time and the result didn't go your way even had the 9% of Ukrainians living in the contested areas had been allowed to vote

Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1994.[1] Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President.[4][5] In 2010 the Ukrainian parliament voted to exclude "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[6]

Ukraine
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Obviously looking at public opinion today Yanukovych got that one way wrong along with just about everything else that got him toppled :shock:
MAP enquiry is a long way short of a formal application for NATO membership which has to get the approval of all member states before consideration. In Ukraines case this would have been unlikely even in 2008
 
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