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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

NIMBY said:
Those tens of thousands of merchant seaman who were sunk by Hitler would beg to differ with you.
You know, the Nazis allied with Japan.
How long would you have allowed the Japanese to expand without cutting off their oil?

Good thing FDR was able to overcome the traitors in the GOP who were aligned with the Nazis in the 1930s.
Such as Sen. Prescott Bush--GWB's grandfather .
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Further off topic dishonesty accusing people of being aligned with the Nazi's. The eldest Bush was a director of a bank who did work for Thyssen. Thyssen fled Germany in 1941, was captured in France and was detained for the balance of the war.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
And if we go a bit further back in (unwritten) history before political creations, neither Ukraine nor Russia existed. So what's the point?
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The point is, don't count on Lady History to support your disingenuous abuse of her.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
You mean Ukrainian self determination doesn't deliver what YOU like :roll:
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I'm not the one troubled by the choice Crimean's made recently.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Did you look at the 2010 Election map of Ukraine. You can view it here.
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Did you look at the 2014 Election map of Ukraine? You can view it below...

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
I'm not the one troubled by the choice Crimean's made recently.
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Or was forced to make at gunpoint more like.....this is just the beginning
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
You ignore the truth that Ukraine has the democratic right to determine its own destiny. I couldn't care less if you feel that destiny conflicts with your wishes
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I do not know of any democratic right.

God does not give that right, and it is not a human right, and there is no entity that gives any such right.

The USA might try to impose that "right" but it is quite clear that the Republic of Russia has overruled that pretense.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I do not know of any democratic right.
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Yes you do you just don't want to know :(

Constitution of Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

God does not give that right, and it is not a human right, and there is no entity that gives any such right.
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The Ukrainian constitution 1996 does. Sorry but trusting 'rights' to the alleged wishes of medieval supernatural deities is a non starter

The USA might try to impose that "right"
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Please show where the US has ever done so with Ukraine ?

but it is quite clear that the Republic of Russia has overruled that pretense.
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At the point of a gun. You might wish international affairs be arbitrated by the law of the jungle where might means right but I fundamentally disagree
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Yes you do you just don't want to know :(

Constitution of Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ukrainian constitution 1996 does.
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I certainly am not going to read that Constitution, and you give no quote, so you claim it says some "right" and so be it.

Therefore do you now suppose that the Ukrainian government has finally woken up to the reality?

The Ukraine had no right to align itself to the warmonger USA regardless of whatever their Constitution might have said.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
Therefore do you now suppose that the Ukrainian government has finally woken up to the reality?
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The reality that it is going to have its hard won sovereignty trampled into the ground and be oppressed by it larger neighbour again you mean ?

The Ukraine had no right to align itself to the warmonger USA regardless of whatever their Constitution might have said.
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Please show evidence that Ukraine has ever done so or that the US had ever asked it to ...... again ?

Just because you are determined to believe something doesn't automatically make it so :roll:
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Or was forced to make at gunpoint more like.....this is just the beginning
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Um right, the folks strolling about the streets in Crimea look quite happy these days. I see no complaints.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

austrianecon said:
Obama is a war criminal too if Putin is one. So is half of Nato.
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Are you actually trying to compare Obama to Putin? Obama is a freakin kitten compared to Putin. Putin is a dictator. A corrupt leader. Obama sucks. And he may be underhanded and sneaky, but he is also a politician. They all are. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin had a nightly ritual of murdering puppies with his bare hands.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

NIMBY said:
Those tens of thousands of merchant seaman who were sunk by Hitler would beg to differ with you.
You know, the Nazis allied with Japan.
How long would you have allowed the Japanese to expand without cutting off their oil?

Good thing FDR was able to overcome the traitors in the GOP who were aligned with the Nazis in the 1930s.
Such as Sen. Prescott Bush--GWB's grandfather .
Click to expand...

True indeed, and Henry Ford was another corporatist nazi sympathiser and Jew hater.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
According to Russia, Tatar leaders have been slipping off to Turkey to plot unrest back home. At any rate, since when do you give a **** about Muslims? Hmmm.
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According to Russia ..... uh huh :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
According to Russia ..... uh huh :roll:
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Yes. Because everything Russia says is false and everything the EU says is true, every body knows that by now.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Yes. Because everything Russia says is false and everything the EU says is true, every body knows that by now.
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On balance I think I'll take the view of the side that doesn't assissinate the journalists not towing the government line. :cool:
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
Your view doesn't matter, on Ukraine, Putin rules the day.
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Much to your delight it seems, though for the life of me I cannot understand why. Have Ukrainians done something to you that you despise them so ?

A rebuttal for your opinion piece

Mearsheimer appears to believe:

There is a thinking entity called “Russia” which has preferences and interests, and which has rights to have its preferences satisfied and its interests accommodated.

“Russia” has an interest in and prefers to have Kiev ruled by a corrupt thug pleasing to whatever corrupt thug currently rules in Moscow.

The United States should not say “boo” to this: it should not seek to extend its security umbrella over Kiev, it should not seek greater economic integration with Kiev, it should not encourage the growth of a civil society and democratic polity in Kiev that would object to be ruled by a corrupt thug pleasing to Moscow.

The rest of NATO and the European Union should also not say “boo” to this: they should not seek to extend its security umbrella over Kiev, they should not seek greater economic integration with Kiev, they should not encourage the growth of a civil society and democratic polity in Kiev that would object to be ruled by a corrupt thug pleasing to Moscow.

http://equitablegrowth.org/2014/09/...-crisis-honest-broker-week-september-19-2014/

In short why are Russia's and not Ukraine's priorities the ones that take precedence here ?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Much to your delight it seems, though for the life of me I cannot understand why. Have Ukrainians done something to you that you despise them so ?
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No, I don't believe I've ever said that. Putin rules the day because as the Council on Foreign Relations has pointed out (click the link in post 369) the crisis is the fault of the West. And you are in a state of denial on that. But like I said, your view is irrelevant, even Putin knows that the American CFR has acknowledged his superior position, and he's going forward with his plans, floggers protestations not withstanding!
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Montecresto said:
No, I don't believe I've ever said that. Putin rules the day because as the Council on Foreign Relations has pointed out (click the link in post 369) the crisis is the fault of the West.
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I've posted a rebuttal to your opinion piece already

And you are in a state of denial on that. But like I said, your view is irrelevant, even Putin knows that the American CFR has acknowledged his superior position, and he's going forward with his plans, floggers protestations not withstanding!
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No this is the opinion of one person. It has not been endorsed by others within this group. Here is another opinion and comprehensive rebuttal from someone at least as well qualified

http://www.europeanleadershipnetwor...heimer-impeccable-logic-wrong-facts_2079.html

And another still

http://duckofminerva.com/2014/09/why-john-j-mearsheimer-is-wrong-on-ukraine.html
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
The reality that it is going to have its hard won sovereignty trampled into the ground and be oppressed by it larger neighbour again you mean ?
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This is not the first time that some Country has acted in a really stupid way and paid a huge price for being so stupid.

Welcome to the real world.

Russia would have been stupid to let it happen, and Russia is not stupid.

flogger said:
Please show evidence that Ukraine has ever done so or that the US had ever asked it to ...... again ?

Just because you are determined to believe something doesn't automatically make it so :roll:
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The proof is given by several people all through this thread, and you are just denying the truth in front of your own face.

There is no sense to keep throwing food to a dog which refuses to stop barking.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
Russia would have been stupid to let it happen, and Russia is not stupid.
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Stupid enough to let what happen exactly ? Is it true that the West has been determined to incorporate Ukraine into NATO? Has Ukraine wanted to join the alliance? The answer to both questions, is a resounding no. Neither NATO nor any major NATO country has ever stated that Ukraine should be incorporated immediately into the alliance. And for good reason they understood that no NATO member state would invoke Article 5 and rush to Ukraine’s assistance in case of an attack by Russia.

The proof is given by several people all through this thread, and you are just denying the truth in front of your own face.
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Who ? Please cite that proof ? I DARE YOU
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Who ? Please cite that proof ? I DARE YOU
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I wish that you would grow up because this is not a discussion between adults when you fail to rise to the occasion.

See the proof here = Montecresto' posting # 369 page 37 =

Anyone reading this thread can see it - while you pretend that it is not in your face and eyes.

:yt
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I wish that you would grow up because this is not a discussion between adults when you fail to rise to the occasion.

See the proof here = Montecresto' posting # 369 page 37 =

Anyone reading this thread can see it - while you pretend that it is not in your face and eyes.

:yt
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This flawed opinion piece was comprehensively rebutted no less than three times since which (unsurprisingly) you chose not to read

Here you go

The Ukraine crisis according to John J. Mearsheimer: Impeccable Logic, Wrong Facts

Department of "Huh?!" John J. Mearsheimer Thinks the West Caused the Ukraine Crisis?: The Honest Broker for the Week of September 19, 2014 - Washington Center for Equitable Growth

Why John J. Mearsheimer is Wrong on Ukraine | Duck of Minerva

Just for good measure here is a fourth

RealTime Economic Issues Watch | Is the West to Blame for Russia’s Aggression in Ukraine? Of Course Not!

You will find more at the foot of the very same Meirsheimer article Montecristo posted too

So why is this opinion proof of anything ?
 
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