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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064292632 said:
What exactly has the US annexed in the past 100 years?

Even if they had how does that justify Putin annexing part of the Ukraine?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

What is it we are supposed to be imposing on Russia then ?
Trying to get the Ukraine under American control including NATO, as that was our belligerent intent.

That would have been an unreasonable imposition of Russia so they rightfully defied it.

Its not the US who's troops is it are in someone elses country annexing chunks of it for themselves ? :roll:
There would be US troops in there is it were not that Russia is so powerful as to stop us.

Of course the US CIA is there infecting the problems.

We are doing our warmongering and bullying in so many other Countries and the Ukraine was intended as another pawn for the picking.

Now the USA talks about sending military assistance and if we do then Russia will rightfully escalate and give our side more to cry about.

Appeasement has been tried once before. It didn't turn out well
That really is a naive way of viewing history, and it is silly American propaganda that never gets straightened out.

The so-called "Appeasement" of Nazi Germany was a success because it closed the door to any future terms and only an unconditional surrender was required because Germany failed to be appeased.

The attempt to "Appease" was a huge success in that it was the driving nail into the final coffin of the Third Reich.

The later calls against "appeasement" was based on that history that the Nazis could not be appeased.

Misusing that slogan for other realities is extremely uninformed.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Trying to get the Ukraine under American control including NATO, as that was our belligerent intent.

What if Ukraine wanted to join the EU and NATO of her own free will and belligerent intent had nothing to do with it ?

That would have been an unreasonable imposition of Russia so they rightfully defied it.
Russia has no right to defy the free will of a neighbouring sovereign state by use of force. It is in direct breach of the UN charter by doing so

There would be US troops in there is it were not that Russia is so powerful as to stop us.

But there weren't any US troops there nor I suspect was there ever any intent that there should be. Prove me wrong ?

Of course the US CIA is there infecting the problems.

Prove it ?

We are doing our warmongering and bullying in so many other Countries and the Ukraine was intended as another pawn for the picking.

Prove it ?

Now the USA talks about sending military assistance and if we do then Russia will rightfully escalate and give our side more to cry about.

But if the big bad USA was involved in concocting this conspiracy from the get go then why has it waited all this time to provide even this very minimal assistance ?

That really is a naive way of viewing history, and it is silly American propaganda that never gets straightened out.

I don't care about that because I'm not American

The so-called "Appeasement" of Nazi Germany was a success because it closed the door to any future terms and only an unconditional surrender was required because Germany failed to be appeased.
The attempt to "Appease" was a huge success in that it was the driving nail into the final coffin of the Third Reich.

What an utterly deranged perception of history you seem to have :shock:

Appeasement was a 'huge success' was it ?:lamo

The later calls against "appeasement" was based on that history that the Nazis could not be appeased.
Misusing that slogan for other realities is extremely uninformed.

The subsequent loss of 55 million lives stands as mute testimony to the sheer enormity of your self delusion :shock:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Trying to get the Ukraine under American control including NATO, as that was our belligerent intent.

That would have been an unreasonable imposition of Russia so they rightfully defied it.

So just making stuff up as you go along eh? First of all even if the Ukraine wanted to join NATO that is their right as a sovereign nation, and second of all the EU is not NATO.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

If you care about exposing wrong doing then why are you not Lambasting Putin?

Because he hasn't done anything wrong, in this situation. You are either in denial of US interference, or ignorant of it, I'm not sure which yet.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064292632 said:
What exactly has the US annexed in the past 100 years?

Hawaii, for starters.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

You should go to youtube, then it works.

I'll try that, thank you.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Because he hasn't done anything wrong, in this situation. You are either in denial of US interference, or ignorant of it, I'm not sure which yet.


Putin is an internationally recognized war criminal so you have an interesting concept of "done nothing wrong". :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064259563 said:
The 2014 Crimean snap-referendum violated the constitution of Ukraine. It was not monitored by international organizations and occurred under direct Russian military occupation. Moreover, both ballot choices resulted in the same outcome.

The illegal rebel referendum in eastern Ukraine also violated the Ukraine constitution, and was similarly conducted under Russian military/political occupation and without international monitors.

In that sense the independence of most modern states (including the US) is "illegal". This is a fairly pointless argument. Facts are more important than all sorts of legal fictions. It is certainly a fact that Russia used military force to get Crimea and Sevastopol to secede from Ukraine. It is just as much a fact that this enjoyed the support of the overwhelming majority of the population of Crimea and Sevastopol.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

%
In that sense the independence of most modern states (including the US) is "illegal". This is a fairly pointless argument. Facts are more important than all sorts of legal fictions. It is certainly a fact that Russia used military force to get Crimea and Sevastopol to secede from Ukraine. It is just as much a fact that this enjoyed the support of the overwhelming majority of the population of Crimea and Sevastopol.

The latter half of your statement is far from correct, the "referendums" were held under armed camps ruled by terror and murder and if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 33% ethnic Russian population voted for a Russian annexation then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. As it stands the annexation of the Crimea is an illegitimate war crime internationally recognized as such.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

%

The latter half of your statement is far from correct, the "referendums" were held under armed camps ruled by terror and murder and if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 33% ethnic Russian population voted for a Russian annexation then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. As it stands the annexation of the Crimea is an illegitimate war crime internationally recognized as such.

Maybe you should read what I wrote. I didn't use any percentages. But if you can't accept facts then that is your problem, not mine. For the rest I see you belong to those who seek to devalue the term "war crime" to a completely meaningless insult.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Because he hasn't done anything wrong, in this situation. You are either in denial of US interference, or ignorant of it, I'm not sure which yet.

That's just Putin worship talking.
Putin tried to buy Ukraine through a corrupt politician. When his own party ousted him he turned to military force.
That is wrong by any definition of the word.
Pretending the US did anything close to what Putin has done can only be wilful ignorance out outright lying.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It is certainly a fact that Russia used military force to get Crimea and Sevastopol to secede from Ukraine.
An undeniable fact.

It is just as much a fact that this enjoyed the support of the overwhelming majority of the population of Crimea and Sevastopol.
It enjoyed the support of the "ethnic Russians" in Crimea. Not the ethnic Ukrainians living there nor the indigenous Tarters. Besides that, the constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea stipulated that any change in Crimea's status must be approved by *all* of the Ukrainian people, not just the citizens living on the peninsula. How can it be that >1% of Ukraine's population of 46 million has the final say on what happens to land that belongs to all the Ukrainian people?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

That's just Putin worship talking.
Putin tried to buy Ukraine through a corrupt politician. When his own party ousted him he turned to military force.
That is wrong by any definition of the word.
Pretending the US did anything close to what Putin has done can only be wilful ignorance out outright lying.

Both countries had been courting Ukraine for years, in the end Ukraine decided that there'd get a better deal with Russia then they would with the US/West. It's only then that Western intrigue kicked in full speed. Putin is responding, and not the aggressor.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Both countries had been courting Ukraine for years, in the end Ukraine decided that there'd get a better deal with Russia then they would with the US/West. It's only then that Western intrigue kicked in full speed. Putin is responding, and not the aggressor.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with Russian cronies in those position that was why they chose the deal. And all those people in the streets were just American plants. Guess they all got flown in from Alabama right?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Because he hasn't done anything wrong, in this situation. You are either in denial of US interference, or ignorant of it, I'm not sure which yet.

Please provide your evidence that it was the US stuffing their pockets with dollars that motivated the unarmed protesters to face up to Yanukovych's guns
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

%

The latter half of your statement is far from correct, the "referendums" were held under armed camps ruled by terror and murder and if you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 33% ethnic Russian population voted for a Russian annexation then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. As it stands the annexation of the Crimea is an illegitimate war crime internationally recognized as such.

You are incorrect, in fact 58% of Crimeans are ethnic Russians. In that respect it is the only Ukrainian oblast with a distinct Russian majority unlike with the currently contested Donetsk and Luhansk which have just 38%
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yeah, it had nothing to do with Russian cronies in those position that was why they chose the deal. And all those people in the streets were just American plants. Guess they all got flown in from Alabama right?

Oh sure Russia had cronies just as Western nations did, I would never deny that. Everybody was working their angle. The protesters were Ukrainians, not Alabamans, but they were a couple hundred thousand, they didn't speak for 43,000,000 Ukrainians, A and B, driving the president from his office and firing upon his motorcade as he fled for his life is hardly the democratic model that you espouse else where's. Would you have supported an angry mob of half a million Americans driving Bush out of the WH and firing upon his motorcade as he fled because of the anger that there was over his lies surrounding the Iraq war and our senseless loss of blood and treasure? Hmm
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Both countries had been courting Ukraine for years, in the end Ukraine decided that there'd get a better deal with Russia then they would with the US/West. It's only then that Western intrigue kicked in full speed. Putin is responding, and not the aggressor.

No Yanukovych decided this much against the will of the bulk of Ukrainians who wanted nothing to do with any such accommodation (which had nothing whatsoever to do with the US of course) . The rest of what happened next is as they say ....history
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064296146 said:
It enjoyed the support of the "ethnic Russians" in Crimea. Not the ethnic Ukrainians living there nor the indigenous Tarters.

Pure lie. Or maybe you simply did not learn arithmetics at school.

Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.

One Year Later, Crimeans Prefer Russia - Bloomberg View

Considering Ukrainians are about 25% of population and Tatars about 10% - they are in the same part of 93% which preferred Russia.

Anyway as I spoke many times the ethic identifiction does not define political preferences, and in cultural sense Russians and Ukrainians are the same people.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

No Yanukovych decided this much against the will of the bulk of Ukrainians who wanted nothing to do with any such accommodation (which had nothing whatsoever to do with the US of course) . The rest of what happened next is as they say ....history

Would you support the removal of an American president by the same means an angry mob removed Yanukovych?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yeah, it had nothing to do with Russian cronies in those position that was why they chose the deal. And all those people in the streets were just American plants. Guess they all got flown in from Alabama right?

There are far too many here (based on US conduct over the last 15 years), prepared to find the US guilty until proven innocent. They've let their domestic cynicism blind their objectivity and thats very much the case with this whole Ukrainian business. This is now and always has been Russia's game not Americas. If the US really wanted Ukraine as badly as is alleged ,she could have gotten it for free 20 years ago when a bankrupt militarily prostrate Russia led by a drunk was in a far weaker position than today.
 
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