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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
When 98% vote "yes" in general that means "everyone".
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Saddam Hussein got 100% of the vote too. What's your point?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
The 2014 snap coup d'etat didn't violate constitution of Ukraine? Funny how people who demolished the whole idea of law and order in Ukraine start to refer to constitution.
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Yanukovych was a corrupt thug and the people of Ukraine wanted him gone.


I believe only those ones who took part at observers' mission over the referendum have a right to say their opinion about it. And all international observers who visited Crimea for referendum confirmed it was free and fair.
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The entire EU, US and Canada called the "referendum" a joke. Even the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) declared it unconstitutional and never sent observers.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
Yeah an open and fair referendum with rigged questions and done under the "protective" guns of Putin's thugs.
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Not forgetting of course there have now been two internationally monitored elections in Ukraine since the overthrow of the Yanukovych regime
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
I believe only those ones who took part at observers' mission over the referendum have a right to say their opinion about it. And all international observers who visited Crimea for referendum confirmed it was free and fair.
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According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine[[sup]82[/sup]] and article 3 of the 2012 Ukrainian law "On all-Ukrainian referendum", territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in Crimea.[[sup]83[/sup]] The Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there are no judicial possibilities, according to the legislation of Ukraine, to initiate such changes.[[sup]84[/sup]] The Venice Commission declared that the referendum was illegal under both Ukrainian and Crimean Constitutions, and violated international standards and norms.[[sup]85[/sup]]

On March 11, the OSCE chair, Switzerland's Foreign Minister Didier Burkhalter, declared the referendum as unconstitutional and therefore the OSCE would not send observers.[[sup]96[/sup]]

Russian state-owned media and referendum organizers claimed that from nearly 70 to 135 international observers monitored the referendum without reporting any violations, but objectivity of these has been questioned, because many of them had ties to far-right groups.[[sup]105[/sup]] [[sup]106[/sup]] [[sup]107[/sup]]

The Ukrayinska Pravda reported that Russia formally asked all Russian-speaking European Union citizens and expats to become observers in Crimea while travel, accommodation and all expenses will be covered.[[sup]111[/sup]]

According to Yale historian Timothy Snyder, the Russian government invited people from among European far-right parties to serve as observers.[[sup]112[/sup]] At least some of the international observers were managed and financed by the Eurasian Observatory for Democracy & Elections (EODE)[[sup]99[/sup]] [[sup]113[/sup]] a far-right Russia-based self-proclaimed election monitoring organization.[[sup]114[/sup]]
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Wikipedia - Crimean Status Referendum 2014

An illegal and sham referendum with no internationally recognized electoral monitors.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064262653 said:
Wikipedia - Crimean Status Referendum 2014

An illegal and sham referendum with no internationally recognized electoral monitors.
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Remind ... international observers were not allowed or they do not come? :)
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
Remind ... international observers were not allowed or they do not come? :)
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Virtually all legitimate international election-monitor organizations viewed the Crimea referendum as illegal under the constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea.

Their participation would have provided a facade of legitimacy to both the illegal snap-referendum and the Russian occupation.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
Yanukovych was a corrupt thug and the people of Ukraine wanted him gone.
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Don't hide your own hypocrisy, your own misunderstanding or your own political preferences behind people. People wanted! What else people wanted? Maybe people wanted civil war? Maybe people wanted economic collapse? Maybe people wanted conscription and total mobilization? People always want something - and the same in Ukraine - but who's got an advantage from the revolution? Absolutely real politicians - Poroshenko, Turchinov, Yatsenyuk and others - but not some abstract "people".

Roadvirus said:
The entire EU, US and Canada called the "referendum" a joke. Even the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) declared it unconstitutional and never sent observers.
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Really? Maybe EU, US and Canada are sent to Earth by God to call what is real referendum and what is not??? ;)
And Canada too? Oh, probaby that changes everything, from your point of view?

About Crimea you (along with EU, US and - CANADA!!!) call referendum a joke, even though these countries refused to send observers but in advance declared it illegal, unfair, under barrels of guns and so on, and so on. So, they didn't watch but they know it was bad.

In Ukraine the legitimate president, legally elected in legal elections, who wasn't released from the power by any legal way, was expelled, the power was siezed through violence and blood, and all what you have to say about it - people wanted.

But in Crimea there are people too. And they wanted too. So, why in the one case "people wanted" is enough for you, and in another case you don't recognize people's right to want? Hypocrisy, pure hypocrisy.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
That is an outright lie.
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No, that's not.

Quag said:
Yup he protected the results he wanted.
Nothing unfair about voting in a referendum with a rigged question and having the guys who want a certain outcome standing there with guns.
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Do you want to say if today the referendum was held in Crimea, there would any other results?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
Saddam Hussein got 100% of the vote too. What's your point?
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My point is that the referendum absolutely reflects the opinion of people. The referendum was organized by local authorities - election committees, government offices, local parliaments - by all authority bodies of Crimea which, by the way, existed and functioned all the time when there was Ukraine's sovereignty over the peninsula and later when Crimea first declared independence and joined to Russia. These authoruty bodies weren't destroyed or dismissed by anybody, and Saddam Hussein has nothing to do with Crimea and its referendum.

I have no idea why you noticed Saddam. What's your point?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Obama openly admits 'brokering power transition' in Ukraine

In an interview with CNN’s Fareed Zakaria, Barack Obama acknowledged that the United States had "brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine," thus admitting to the highest level of democratic impropriety imaginable.

http://rt.com/op-edge/228379-obama-power-transition-ukraine/
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

“No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

Ukrainian Government:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
No, that's not.
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Yes it is as others have shown.

Do you want to say if today the referendum was held in Crimea, there would any other results?
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Nah maybe they will up to 99%
What a moronic question.
As long as the evil Putin armed thugs are in control no referendum will be fair or have any outcome other than what Putin decides.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
Yes it is as others have shown.


Nah maybe they will up to 99%
What a moronic question.
As long as the evil Putin armed thugs are in control no referendum will be fair or have any outcome other than what Putin decides.
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Let's not invent... I do not want to go to the Crimea and see everything for yourself? Ask about the referendum and Ukraine...

What do you think, what would be the results of a referendum without the help of Russia?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064263271 said:
Virtually all legitimate international election-monitor organizations viewed the Crimea referendum as illegal under the constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea.

Their participation would have provided a facade of legitimacy to both the illegal snap-referendum and the Russian occupation.
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Brilliant! A referendum can not be considered legitimate without international observers, but the observers did not go, because they believe the referendum illegal. Brilliantly!

We talk a lot about the legitimacy of the referendum ... But you somehow forget about the people in the Crimea. Do you think they want to return to Ukraine?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
Let's not invent... I do not want to go to the Crimea and see everything for yourself? Ask about the referendum and Ukraine...

What do you think, what would be the results of a referendum without the help of Russia?
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We will never know what it would have been because Putin would never allow it to happen unless he controlled the outcome
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
We will never know what it would have been because Putin would never allow it to happen unless he controlled the outcome
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Suddenly... I suggest still visit the Crimea and ask the residents themselves. I know the results, but I do not care, you would not believe :)

Hypothetically... If you knew exactly what 90% of people in the Crimea in favor of annexation to Russia, then you would have approved it?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
Suddenly... I suggest still visit the Crimea and ask the residents themselves. I know the results, but I do not care, you would not believe :)

Hypothetically... If you knew exactly what 90% of people in the Crimea in favor of annexation to Russia, then you would have approved it?
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If it was legal under Ukrainian law, yes.

If 99% of the people wanted in Kamchatka, or Siberia to leave Russia would you approve it? Would Putin allow it?
We all know the Putin's answer would be to kill, imprison and/or utterly destroy in any means he could think of anyone who tried to do so.
It however was not done legally or in free manner and was done with a loaded question under the threat of force.
Your point is moot and will forever remain so.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
If it was legal under Ukrainian law, yes.

If 99% of the people wanted in Kamchatka, or Siberia to leave Russia would you approve it? Would Putin allow it?
We all know the Putin's answer would be to kill, imprison and/or utterly destroy in any means he could think of anyone who tried to do so.
It however was not done legally or in free manner and was done with a loaded question under the threat of force.
Your point is moot and will forever remain so.
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The threat of force to whom? Crimea for more than twenty years dreamed of returning to Russia - this is the idea of a whole generation, not a momentary desire. Well to tell you that, you clearly were not there, just argue in this way... If Crimea is not returned, the Donbass Ukrainian authorities would seem a cakewalk.

Summer in Siberia has arranged a meeting for the separation of Siberia. The most numerous rally was in Novosibirsk - with posters stood 4 people, of which only two were from Siberia. Locals and dispersed them, the police did not give cripple.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
Obama openly admits 'brokering power transition' in Ukraine

In an interview with CNN’s Fareed Zakaria, Barack Obama acknowledged that the United States had "brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine," thus admitting to the highest level of democratic impropriety imaginable.

http://rt.com/op-edge/228379-obama-power-transition-ukraine/
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The transition agreement with Yanukovych that Obama was referring to was brokered by the Prime Ministers of Germany, France, and Poland. The agreement was signed by Yanukovych and the Maidan opposition and witnessed by the Prime Ministers in the Presidential Palace in Kiev on Friday 21 February 2014. The transition agreement called for the 2004 constitution will be restored within 48 hours and a national unity government to be formed within 10 days, a presidential election no later than December of 2014, and an end to martial law. After signing this document, Yanukovych fled Kyiv on the night of February 21/22.

Ukrainian president and opposition sign early poll deal

_73141970_5983896c-b15c-47fd-8cc2-315a27a512a0.jpg

Transition agreement signing ceremony in Kyiv on 21 February 2014
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
“No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

Ukrainian Government:
Click to expand...
Global Research is a known conspiracy website. Try again.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
Hypothetically... If you knew exactly what 90% of people in the Crimea in favor of annexation to Russia, then you would have approved it?
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I have lived in Krym (Crimea). And yes, I agree that the ethnic-Russian majority in Crimea would favor a return to Russia. The problems are... this was not accomplished legally and transpired under Russian military occupation. For this to have been a legal secession, the majority of *all Ukrainians* would have had to vote positively on Crimean independence. Maybe they would have, probably they wouldn't have, but we shall never know because Russian aggression did not allow Ukrainians and Crimeans to abide by their respective constitutions.

Although Putin obtained the results he wanted (permanent control of the Russian Black Sea Fleet naval facilities at Sevastopol), he badly mishandled this and miscalculated the negative international response. His subsequent foray into eastern Ukraine has served to further exacerbate an already bad situation.

Rightly so, most of the world views Russian aggression in Crimea and eastern Ukraine as blatant violations of international law and an onslaught against border integrity and national sovereignty.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064265569 said:
I have lived in Krym (Crimea). And yes, I agree that the ethnic-Russian majority in Crimea would favor a return to Russia. The problems are... this was not accomplished legally and transpired under Russian military occupation. For this to have been a legal secession, the majority of *all Ukrainians* would have had to vote positively on Crimean independence. Maybe they would have, probably they wouldn't have, but we shall never know because Russian aggression did not allow Ukrainians and Crimeans to abide by their respective constitutions.

Although Putin obtained the results he wanted (permanent control of the Russian Black Sea Fleet naval facilities at Sevastopol), he badly mishandled this and miscalculated the negative international response. His subsequent foray into eastern Ukraine has served to further exacerbate an already bad situation.

Rightly so, most of the world views Russian aggression in Crimea and eastern Ukraine as blatant violations of international law and an onslaught against border integrity and national sovereignty.
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I also lived in the Crimea. Also lived in Zaporozhye and Kiev. Most Ukrainians against the loss of the Crimea, but the inhabitants of Crimea joining Russia support. If not this referendum, the blood would be more than the Donbass.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
The threat of force to whom? Crimea for more than twenty years dreamed of returning to Russia - this is the idea of a whole generation, not a momentary desire. Well to tell you that, you clearly were not there, just argue in this way... If Crimea is not returned, the Donbass Ukrainian authorities would seem a cakewalk.
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The referendum occurred AFTER Russia had invaded and basically annexed Crimea. There is no chance of a fair vote when it is brought about by the use of force using a rigged question.


Summer in Siberia has arranged a meeting for the separation of Siberia. The most numerous rally was in Novosibirsk - with posters stood 4 people, of which only two were from Siberia. Locals and dispersed them, the police did not give cripple.
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So instead of answering you reply with a pathetic joke. I will assume that you would never agree to any Russian territory leaving and are just hypocritical in your beliefs due to your support of an evil dictator.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

bardak said:
If not this referendum, the blood would be more than the Donbass.
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There would have been no insurrection in Crimea without Russian intelligence and special-ops forces laying the groundwork prior to the overt military invasion.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064265719 said:
There would have been no insurrection in Crimea without Russian intelligence and special-ops forces laying the groundwork prior to the overt military invasion.
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For obvious reasons, Russia wanted to hold Crimea. It wanted to keep NATO out of its soft underbelly. What's wrong with that?
 
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