U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

JP Cusick · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
When it boils down to it you basically are advocating the law of the jungle where might means right and surrender the only option for the weak.

This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.

In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.

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Simpleχity;1064256048 said:
Ukraine was a SSR - Soviet Socialist Republic. Below is Article 3 of the Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States (Belavezha Accords). Signed in Minsk on 8 December 1991 by Belarus, Ukraine, and the Russian Federation. On 21 December 1991, 11 former members of the USSR signed the Alma Ata Protocol which reaffirmed the principles of the Belavezha Accords. The Russian Federation also signed the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine on 5 December 1994.

See above. The Russian Federation recognized the territory and existing borders of the new independent states via numerous signed protocols and accords. In return, the Russian Federation was granted the right to assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council previously held by the now defunct USSR.

Russia did live up to that as the Ukraine became an independent sovereign State.

The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.

It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.

The USA made the same stupid mistake in the Republic of Georgia so the USA does not learn from our blunders or our stupidity.

flogger · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.

Why is Russia and Ukraine different ? If Ukraine had been a NATO member like the Baltics or Poland would this be happening to her now ?

In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

I don't buy that xenophobic argument at all. If the USA was really that desperate to acquire Ukraine it could have done so any time it liked 20 years ago when all if faced was a bankrupt and militarily prostrate Russia led by a drunk.

I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.

Yes Nazi Germany handled Poland and France 'professionally and brilliantly' too in 1939/40. That didn't make what it was doing right. You basically seem to want to distort any international crisis into a club with which to beat up on the US right or wrong . It isn't US troops with boots on the ground in Ukraine and you are fawning over arguably the most dangerous demagogue to have emerged since WW2

The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.

Please present your evidence that the USA paid the protesters in Kiev to overthrow their corrupt regime ?

It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.

Yeah. I mean what good are agreements when they aren't worth the paper they were written on. Just roll the tanks in when it suits anyway right ? Just out of morbid curiosity how is it that the US have 'cheated' anybody here ?

Good grief ! :roll:

Quag · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
This really is just a discussion about Russia and the Ukraine, so you trying to make this case as some worldwide principles is just childish.

In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

I honestly view Russia as handling the problem so professionally and brilliantly that it makes it look like the USA was suckered into our idiotic interference with the Ukraine.

============================================

Russia did live up to that as the Ukraine became an independent sovereign State.

The problems began when the USA snuck in and tried to turn the Ukraine against Russia and now the USA has created a mess and Russia dominates.

It is silly to hide behind an agreement in 1994 to support the betrayals of 2014-15 as Russia is not living in the past while the USA is cheating in the present.

The USA made the same stupid mistake in the Republic of Georgia so the USA does not learn from our blunders or our stupidity.

The USA never tried to invade or take over Ukraine.
Putin did that all on his own.
He is 100% responsible for the mess in Ukraine now.
But his days are numbered. The Russian economy sucks and he wont be able to hold onto power for too much longer unless something really good happens.

flogger · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Quag said:
.
But his days are numbered. The Russian economy sucks and he wont be able to hold onto power for too much longer unless something really good happens.

Don't underestimate the power of a 'controlled' media. It certainly helped the likes of Saddam Hussein hold on to power after the first Gulf War and the Iraqi economy was in a far worse state than Russia's is today

Quag · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Don't underestimate the power of a 'controlled' media. It certainly helped the likes of Saddam Hussein hold on to power after the first Gulf War and the Iraqi economy was in a far worse state than Russia's is today

Controlled media only goes so far.
Putin is scared because he knows there is no way he can leave power and stay alive.
He will start to get even more repressive with the Russian people soon enough. That is the begging of the end for him.
My only big fear is that he may try and start WWIII in a last ditch attempt to hold onto power just a little bit longer.

11Bravo · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064224721 said:
The Moscow Times | U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Indeed. The rebels and Russia signed a document (The Minsk Agreement) which called for a ceasefire and a freeze on troop movements beginning at 1600 GMT on 5 September 2014. It was signed by rebel leaders Aleksandr Zakharchenko and Ihor Plotnytskiy and the Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov. Russia also agreed in Minsk to pull all forces and equipment out of Ukraine. Toilet paper promises.

Within the past two weeks, rebel forces supplied by and in tandem with Russian forces have launched a major offensive and have captured the Donetsk International Airport and ~500 sq. miles of additional territory. They have attacked on a curved arc beginning at Volnovakha in the southeast, north to Pisky, and east to Stanytsk-Luhanska. These forces now control 7% of Ukraine territory (besides Crimea) and 20% of the population.

Rebel armored vehicles (supplied by Russia) move towards Slovyanoserbsk in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday 21 January 2015. (Boston Herald)

All of those in Eastern Ukraine love Russia and hate the West anyway....might as well let Russia have it. Not worth the fight.

flogger · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

11Bravo said:
All of those in Eastern Ukraine love Russia and hate the West anyway....might as well let Russia have it. Not worth the fight.

Given that in actuality only some 38% of those from the contested areas of Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Russians I really doubt thats the case

11Bravo · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Given that in actuality only some 38% of those from the contested areas of Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Russians I really doubt thats the case

The ethnic russians aren't the only ones that want Russia to have control. Not even close. It's everyone in that region. I suggest you watch the documentary that just came on Netflix, if you have Netflix.

flogger · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

11Bravo said:
The ethnic russians aren't the only ones that want Russia to have control. Not even close. It's everyone in that region. I suggest you watch the documentary that just came on Netflix, if you have Netflix.

I've visited the major cities of Kharkiv and Dnepropetrovsk in that region so I know its not the case from my own personal experiences too.

11Bravo · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
I've visited the major cities of Kharkiv and Dnepropetrovsk in that region so I know its not the case from my own personal experiences too.

I'm sure there are plenty of nationalists there, I'm speaking from what I'm reading and seeing in recent months.

Rogue Valley · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

11Bravo said:
The ethnic russians aren't the only ones that want Russia to have control. Not even close. It's everyone in that region.

I've lived in both Ukraine and Crimea. Your "everyone" assertion is as absurd as it is erroneous.

11Bravo said:
I suggest you watch the documentary that just came on Netflix, if you have Netflix.

I suggest that you think twice about relying on a distributor of entertainment media.

Roadvirus · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
In this case the one (1) who made the mistake that they were strong enough to take the Ukraine was the USA, and the USA got rebuffed by the Republic of Russia - and rightly so.

The US wasn't trying to "take" anything. It's Russia doing all the taking...starting with Crimea and then moving on with (for now) Eastern Ukraine.

Roadvirus · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

11Bravo said:
All of those in Eastern Ukraine love Russia and hate the West anyway....might as well let Russia have it. Not worth the fight.

If they love Russia so much, they can move there. And Russia has ZERO rights to Eastern Ukraine, so why should they be allowed to have it?

11Bravo · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
If they love Russia so much, they can move there. And Russia has ZERO rights to Eastern Ukraine, so why should they be allowed to have it?

I never said they were allowed to have it. A lot of nations aren't allowed to have the land they have.

11Bravo · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064258127 said:
I've lived in both Ukraine and Crimea. Your "everyone" assertion is as absurd as it is erroneous.

I suggest that you think twice about relying on a distributor of entertainment media.

It wasn't "entertainment" lol. It was just a documentary of real people telling their stories. I do however respect your opinion since you lived there.

And live combat footage.

DA60 · Jan 30, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Donetsk region held a 'hasty' referendum in which they voted overwhelmingly to leave the Ukraine.

Then the Ukraine rejected the will of the people and started shooting.

I blame the Ukraine, America and Moscow for this mess. But I blame the Ukraine FAR more then Moscow.

EnigmaO01 · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
I see no problem with Russia taking its proper claim to the Ukraine and to the Crimea because the Ukraine belonged to Russia dating back 250 years to Catherine the Great circa 1764.

The western territory of the Ukraine was part of old Poland, see LINK.

Today it is the West being led by the USA who tried to get the Ukraine to pull away from Russia or else none of the present hostilities would have happened.

I honestly see the actions of their President Putin as being skillful and professional and performed like an expert, while our President Obama speaks like a complete fool where it comes to this American made crisis.

So why are you here mooching off of the American system? It appears your loyalties are with Putin.

MrFirst · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064258127 said:
I've lived in both Ukraine and Crimea. Your "everyone" assertion is as absurd as it is erroneous.

When 98% vote "yes" in general that means "everyone".

MrFirst · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Roadvirus said:
If they love Russia so much, they can move there. And Russia has ZERO rights to Eastern Ukraine, so why should they be allowed to have it?

People of Crimea have already used your advice and moved to Russia.
By the way, how do you define who has zero rights, who has 3 rights, or 5 rights or some rights else?

flogger · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

DA60 said:
The Donetsk region held a 'hasty' referendum in which they voted overwhelmingly to leave the Ukraine.

Yeah and Saddam Hussein used to get 99% in elections at the point of a gun too

Then the Ukraine rejected the will of the people and started shooting.

The will of the people my backside. Even in the contested areas only 38% are ethnic Russian. I know too from personal experience of many visits that the great bulk of the people want EU membership and not to become part of any reformed greater Russian empire

I blame the Ukraine, America and Moscow for this mess. But I blame the Ukraine FAR more then Moscow

Nope this one is all Russia my friend as I'm sure the vast bulk of Ukrainians would confirm for you. Russia made this happen in order to keep the EU and then potenially NATO from its doorstep

flogger · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

EnigmaO01 said:
So why are you here mooching off of the American system? It appears your loyalties are with Putin.

This guy is a one trick pony. He's simply here to demonize the US and uses almost 9/11 'truther' levels of obsession with which to do so. Whats actually happening in Ukraine is inconsequential to that end

Rogue Valley · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
When 98% vote "yes" in general that means "everyone".

The 2014 Crimean snap-referendum violated the constitution of Ukraine. It was not monitored by international organizations and occurred under direct Russian military occupation. Moreover, both ballot choices resulted in the same outcome.

The illegal rebel referendum in eastern Ukraine also violated the Ukraine constitution, and was similarly conducted under Russian military/political occupation and without international monitors.

Quag · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
When 98% vote "yes" in general that means "everyone".

Yeah an open and fair referendum with rigged questions and done under the "protective" guns of Putin's thugs.

MrFirst · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064259563 said:
The 2014 Crimean snap-referendum violated the constitution of Ukraine. It was not monitored by international organizations and occurred under direct Russian military occupation. Moreover, both ballot choices resulted in the same outcome.

The illegal rebel referendum in eastern Ukraine also violated the Ukraine constitution, and was similarly conducted under Russian military/political occupation and without international monitors.

The 2014 snap coup d'etat didn't violate constitution of Ukraine? Funny how people who demolished the whole idea of law and order in Ukraine start to refer to constitution. Turchinov and Yatsenyuk didn't care about constitution when the siezed the power, when they called people for illegal actions, when they armed gangsters and sent them to fight against Berkut in Kiev and against militia in Donbass. This is ridiculous, they remember about constitution only when it's good for them, any other time they don't have any limits.

Quag said:
Yeah an open and fair referendum with rigged questions and done under the "protective" guns of Putin's thugs.

I believe only those ones who took part at observers' mission over the referendum have a right to say their opinion about it. And all international observers who visited Crimea for referendum confirmed it was free and fair.

And of course Putin's guns are protective. Look at what is going on in Ukraine where people also decided to hold referendums but where they didn't have "Putin's protective guns". Kiev authorities made bloodbath for them.

Quag · Jan 31, 2015

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
The 2014 snap coup d'etat didn't violate constitution of Ukraine? Funny how people who demolished the whole idea of law and order in Ukraine start to refer to constitution. Turchinov and Yatsenyuk didn't care about constitution when the siezed the power, when they called people for illegal actions, when they armed gangsters and sent them to fight against Berkut in Kiev and against militia in Donbass. This is ridiculous, they remember about constitution only when it's good for them, any other time they don't have any limits.

His own party ousted him in a legal way so yeah!
But even if it wasn't, It doesn't give Putin the right to invade and annex parts of another country

I believe only those ones who took part at observers' mission over the referendum have a right to say their opinion about it. And all international observers who visited Crimea for referendum confirmed it was free and fair.

That is an outright lie.

And of course Putin's guns are protective. Look at what is going on in Ukraine where people also decided to hold referendums but where they didn't have "Putin's protective guns". Kiev authorities made bloodbath for them.

Yup he protected the results he wanted.
Nothing unfair about voting in a referendum with a rigged question and having the guys who want a certain outcome standing there with guns.

Go lick Putin's boots elsewhere anyone with half a brain knows he is 100% responsible for all the problems in the Ukraine today.
His time will come soon enough the Russian people will not let him fade off into retirement.

U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

JP Cusick

The Expert

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Rogue Valley

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