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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

And I know what they told you about Yanukovich.
They told you, confidentially: Look, flogger, this is pure mob... The mob rules our country...
And so on in the same style. ;)

Well as a Russian you must be well aquainted with how that works :wink:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064247946 said:
Wrong as usual. The Ukraine government welcomes any and all US and EU assistance against blatant Russian aggression. Per Ukraine's declared desire to turn Westward, Western countries have every reason to be there and help Ukraine become a contributing member of the Western community of nations.

Thats the point that nobody will address here in their ongoing demonization of the West. What if its what the Ukrainians actually want ? Why shackle themselves to the the economic corpse that is Russia when they could become part of the largest trading bloc on Earth instead ? Its a no brainer
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

For the umpteenth time. What if Ukraine wants to be part of Western institutions of its own free will.? Its getting tiresome repeating myself here
Thats the point that nobody will address here in their ongoing demonization of the West. What if its what the Ukrainians actually want ? Why shackle themselves to the the economic corpse that is Russia when they could become part of the largest trading bloc on Earth instead ? Its a no brainer
I really did answer you directly and in detail in my posting # 78 linked here =

And to QUOTE: "But for a direct answer then "no" the Ukraine has no free will to be hostile with its huge neighbor Russia, and the Ukraine has no free will to align itself to the hostile warmonger nation of the USA against Russia."

You demonstrate a huge part of the problem in that Americans refuse to see the truth even when it is given directly in front of your eyes.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I really did answer you directly and in detail in my posting # 78 linked here =

No you most certainly did not. You in fact you went out of your way to avoid doing so ! :doh

And to QUOTE: "But for a direct answer then "no" the Ukraine has no free will to be hostile with its huge neighbor Russia


That is NOT the question you were asked ?

, and the Ukraine has no free will to align itself to the hostile warmonger nation of the USA against Russia

And niether was that.

I'll make it as simple as I possibly can. Does the Ukraine have any right to self determination ? Stop attempting to distort the question in order to avoid answering it and just answer it ?

You demonstrate a huge part of the problem in that Americans refuse to see the truth even when it is given directly in front of your eyes

For the third time now I'M NOT AMERICAN !!!
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

I'll make it as simple as I possibly can. Does the Ukraine have any right to self determination ? Stop attempting to distort the question in order to avoid answering it and just answer it ?
Well if we take that very literally as you keep presenting it then "self determination" means only their "SELF" and so where it is affecting others like affecting the USA and affecting Russia then that is NOT just their "self" nor is it their "self determination" because they are affecting other Nations.

So literally yes they do have a limited right to their own self determination so long as it only affects their self.

It is limited because the International Community has certain precedence as like any Country committing crimes against humanity within their own borders is not acceptable, so any self determination can not be such that is viewed as a crime, and any self determination can not be such that negatively affects its neighbors as that is not SELF.

For the third time now I'M NOT AMERICAN !!!
Since you hide your identity and your location and hide other details then that means you are nobody and nowhere.

That is what it means to be anonymous.

My reference to Americans refusing to see the truth is still true and accurate, and it obviously still applies to you wherever you might claim or deny to be located.

You are still being blind to what is said in front of your face and eyes even if you are hiding away on some other planet.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Well if we take that very literally as you keep presenting it then "self determination" means only their "SELF"

Thats right . That means a political posture decided by Ukrainians for Ukrainians

and so where it is affecting others like affecting the USA and affecting Russia then that is NOT just their "self" nor is it their "self determination" because they are affecting other Nations.

This is of course nonsense. By that measure then does China therefore have the right to determine Russia's alignments and political posture given it is around 8 times its population and shares an even longer border with it than Ukraine does ?

So literally yes they do have a limited right to their own self determination so long as it only affects their self.

So such a nation has no right to determine its own alliances if it conflicts with the wishes of a larger neighbour ?

It is limited because the International Community has certain precedence as like any Country committing crimes against humanity within their own borders is not acceptable, so any self determination can not be such that is viewed as a crime, and any self determination can not be such that negatively affects its neighbors as that is not SELF.
Just as well then that this is not applicable in Ukraines case given it is not in breach of treaties it has signed with Russia nor has any of its combatants on Russian territory

Since you hide your identity and your location and hide other details then that means you are nobody and nowhere.

I'm Scottish which I already mentioned in my response to you on post # 19

My reference to Americans refusing to see the truth is still true and accurate, and it obviously still applies to you wherever you might claim or deny to be located.

I couldn't care less what you choose to believe about Americans frankly. There are an estimated 5000+ people that would still be alive were it not for the Russians (and not Americans) 'vacationing' in Ukraine today

You are still being blind to what is said in front of your face and eyes even if you are hiding away on some other planet.

No I'm just not the the sort of myopic bigot you'd like me to be :(
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

As such the USA is the unwelcome intruder who has no business in that area.

The US didn't waltz into Crimea and say "It's ours".
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

So such a nation has no right to determine its own alliances if it conflicts with the wishes of a larger neighbour ?
Yes - and welcome to the real would.

See a related limitation of National RIGHTS = "The Monroe Doctrine was a US foreign policy regarding Latin American countries in 1823. It stated that further efforts by European nations to colonize land or interfere with states in North or South America would be viewed as acts of aggression, requiring U.S. intervention."
Link = Monroe Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in the real world there is no self determination or alliances which are hostile to their neighboring Countries because such a hostility or alliance is an act of war.

The USA tricked the Ukraine into a really stupid alliance of hostility against Russia, and I say the reason the USA is now so upset is because we screwed the Ukraine by our ignorant policy.


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The US didn't waltz into Crimea and say "It's ours".
That is so excessively naive and childish that it is amazing to me.

It was Russia who annexed the Crimea because the Crimea rightly belonged to Russia.

The USA has tried to waltz into the Ukraine and made a mess out of it because the USA is an outsider and it was none of our business.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Thats the point that nobody will address here in their ongoing demonization of the West. What if its what the Ukrainians actually want ? Why shackle themselves to the the economic corpse that is Russia when they could become part of the largest trading bloc on Earth instead ? Its a no brainer

Russia is economic corpse only in your free non-state-controlled propaganda TV.

You're the master of superficial and senseless statements. Ukraine has already signed the trade agreement with EU which was the start point for all this mess called "Maidan revolution". And what happened? Nothing. Prosperity hasn't come to Ukraine. Ukraine did not increase its exports to Europe or USA. Why? Because of very simple reason: they don't have anything essential to sell there. What they can offer for Eurpean market? What production? Prostitutes? But Romania seized the monopoly in this ground. What else? Maybe airplanes? But Europe and USA do not buy Antonov airplanes. Engines for airplanes and helos? The same situation. What you call "the largest trading bloc on Earth" can give Ukraine nothing.

Sometimes you need to look at details, not just - oh, this is greatest trade bloc! so cool! So what? Show me your money, as Americans say.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Russia is economic corpse only in your free non-state-controlled propaganda TV.

Are you kidding me ? Russia is a one trick pony entirely dependent for its economic well being on oil and gas price fluctuations. It makes nothing ! :lol:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yes - and welcome to the real would.

Spoken like a true dictator. God help any country in the world that is smaller than its neighbour if they were all to subscribe to your morally bankrupt worldview

So in the real world there is no self determination or alliances which are hostile to their neighboring Countries because such a hostility or alliance is an act of war.

That is just about the biggest crock I've heard on this forum. You are basically blaming the bullied for defending themselves from being bullied

The USA tricked the Ukraine into a really stupid alliance of hostility against Russia,

The Ukraine has been independent for 23 years and during that time it wasn't America interfering with its internal affairs but Russia. Even going as far as attempting to poison pro Western president Victor Yushchenko 10 years ago. An attempt which he barely survived

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia blamed over poison probe

You want anyone cuddling up to a regime that does this kind of thing ! :shock:

and I say the reason the USA is now so upset is because we screwed the Ukraine by our ignorant policy.

I honestly don't think the current administration could care less about events in Ukraine. This huge conspiracy theory you've got going here is simply to bolster your own anti US xenophobia.

It was Russia who annexed the Crimea because the Crimea rightly belonged to Russia.

It was nothing of the sort and was in direct breach of the Budapest agreement of 1994 guaranteeing Ukraines borders ergo it was totally illegal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

The USA has tried to waltz into the Ukraine and made a mess out of it because the USA is an outsider and it was none of our business.

The USA could have 'waltzed' into Ukraine 20 years ago and virtually for free had it chosen to. Todays conflict is entirely one of Russias making
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It was Russia who annexed the Crimea because the Crimea rightly belonged to Russia.
Wrong again. Below is the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The world has recognized Crimea as Ukrainian land for 60 years now. Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the naval facilities at Sevastopol for the Black Sea Fleet. You don't pay rent to someone else if you already own the property. In 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.


The_transfer_of_Crimea.jpg

The Presidium decree published in Pravda transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064252018 said:
Wrong again. Below is the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The world has recognized Crimea as Ukrainian land for 60 years now. Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the naval facilities at Sevastopol for the Black Sea Fleet. You don't pay rent to someone else if you already own the property. In 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.

I didn't know this, but it certainly compounds the point I've been making about Ukrainian national integrity having been compromised by Russia. This thread is weird you have Russian boots on the ground in Crimea and others 'vacationing' in Donetsk and Luhansk but somehow this whole crisis is still all big bad Americas fault ! :shock:

Go figure :roll:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The frame of Ukrainian TV news TSN.

Ukrainian terrorists use emergency cars with red cross for moving inside the warzone in Donbass:

10926465_10204706017403699_2617439325480871828_n.jpg
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The frame of Ukrainian TV news TSN.

Ukrainian terrorists use emergency cars with red cross for moving inside the warzone in Donbass:

View attachment 67179649

Cool pic of Russian backed separatist.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Simpleχity;1064252018 said:
Wrong again. Below is the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The world has recognized Crimea as Ukrainian land for 60 years now. Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the naval facilities at Sevastopol for the Black Sea Fleet. You don't pay rent to someone else if you already own the property. In 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.

Why wrong?
JP Cusick is absolutely right - Crimea rightly belonged to Russia. Its belonging to Ukraine since 1991 till 2014 was a historical mistake. But even then Russia did not argue the sovereignty of Ukraine over the peninsula until March 18, 2014. Referendum was held, people voted. Happily the Ukrainian occupation is over now.

And by the way, it's not Pravda, it's News of Supreme Council of USSR. Westerners due to their almost complete ignorance about Russia think there was a single newspaper in USSR.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Cool pic of Russian backed separatist.

It's not Russian backed separatists. It's soldier of Ukrainian army. Terrorist. Murderer of children and women. Hiding behind the Red Cross.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It's not Russian backed separatists. It's soldier of Ukrainian army. Terrorist. Murderer of children and women. Hiding behind the Red Cross.

Or defending an ambulance from Russian invaders who have doubtless attacked others. Remember Its you guys that are in his country comrade
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

It's not Russian backed separatists. It's soldier of Ukrainian army. Terrorist. Murderer of children and women. Hiding behind the Red Cross.

Bolded IS Putin backed separatist.
Ie Scum of the earth
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Spoken like a true dictator. God help any country in the world that is smaller than its neighbour if they were all to subscribe to your morally bankrupt worldview
Yes - and again - welcome to the real world.

And I am only viewing the world as it really is - because I did not make it this way, and if I were the Dictator then I would make some big improvements to the world.

This world is a sinful world because it is morally bankrupt - but I am not one of those who made it this way.


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Simpleχity;1064252018 said:
Wrong again. Below is the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the USSR transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The world has recognized Crimea as Ukrainian land for 60 years now. Russia has been paying Ukraine $98 million dollars a year since 2009 to lease the naval facilities at Sevastopol for the Black Sea Fleet. You don't pay rent to someone else if you already own the property. In 2010 the Russian leasehold was renegotiated with an extension until 2042 and an option for an additional five years until 2047.
The Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.

The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.

And as someone else said - Russia accepted the Crimea under Ukrainian control until the USA came in and stirred up trouble which made the Crimea join up with Russia.

There are easy to see steps where all was going well then the USA came in and the Ukraine got the shaft from all sides.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Yes - and again - welcome to the real world.

Tell that to the Israelis and Kuwaitis

And I am only viewing the world as it really is - because I did not make it this way, and if I were the Dictator then I would make some big improvements to the world.

When it boils down to it you basically are advocating the law of the jungle where might means right and surrender the only option for the weak. It reminds me of another guy who once said. 'The soil of Europe exists for those who have the strength to take it'. Do you know who that was ?

This world is a sinful world because it is morally bankrupt - but I am not one of those who made it this way.

Sinful eh ? I'm not a religious nut and the world is what it is

The Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.

Indeed . That didn't happen till 1991 with the integrity of its borders ratified by treaty by Russia and others in 1994. Russia is now in direct violation of it

The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.

After 1991 that ceased to be the case

And as someone else said - Russia accepted the Crimea under Ukrainian control until the USA came in and stirred up trouble which made the Crimea join up with Russia.

Please provide any evidence whatsoever that the US ever had any interest in Crimea or gave Russia any excuse to annex it ?

There are easy to see steps where all was going well then the USA came in and the Ukraine got the shaft from all sides.

No just from the Russians as evidenced by the ever rising body count caused by their 'tourists'. Putin was never going to let them join the EU which was what triggered this conflict. The rest is history
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Ukraine use to be a "United Republic" of the USSR in 1954 so it was not independent of the USSR.
Ukraine was a SSR - Soviet Socialist Republic. Below is Article 3 of the Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States (Belavezha Accords). Signed in Minsk on 8 December 1991 by Belarus, Ukraine, and the Russian Federation. On 21 December 1991, 11 former members of the USSR signed the Alma Ata Protocol which reaffirmed the principles of the Belavezha Accords. The Russian Federation also signed the Budapest Memorandum with Ukraine on 5 December 1994.

In order to achieve the purposes of the Commonwealth the member states, based on generally recognized norms of international law and the Helsinki Final Act, shall build their relations in accordance with the following interconnected and equal principles: respect of the sovereignty of the member states, the inalienable rights of peoples to self-determination and the right to determine their fate without outside interference; the inviolability of state borders, the recognition of existing borders and the rejection of unlawful territorial annexations.

The Crimea belonged to Russia (another "United Republic" of the USSR) so it was only a transfer of the governing authority under the USSR and NOT a surrender of territory from Russia to an independent Ukraine.
See above. The Russian Federation recognized the territory and existing borders of the new independent states via numerous signed protocols and accords. In return, the Russian Federation was granted the right to assume the permanent seat on the UN Security Council previously held by the now defunct USSR.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

And why would they? I feel bad for the people of Ukraine who are just pawns in a power play.

The moral explanation is that they don't command the respect to keep creeping Western influence out of a sovereign, non-Russian country except by force. There were a hundred of things Russia could have done in the last 25 years to nourish a partnership with Ukraine that wasn't grounded on the threat of force.
 
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