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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

DDD said:
But if these journalists "risk their lives" while not admitting that Russia is slowly occupying Ukraine, then they only appear as "liberal media" when in fact they are just pretending to be one.
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What are you talking about?!?

Russian liberal media constantly talks against Russia's intervention in Ukraine, looks for supposed "Russian soldiers' graves", Russian bloggers were one of the first ones to sight and talk about T72B3, BTR82AM, etc in Ukraine, so on and on.

Fallen.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
If America doubts the resolve of Russia in the Ukraine then we are playing a fool who could get us all killed in lightning speed.
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WTF ...... Yes we can see that Russia is hell bent on dominating the Ukrainians. And you are high if you think that Russia can kill us much less at light speed.

Perhaps you should move to Russia (lol you probably already live there).
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Again Irrespective of the US or Russia. What if Ukrainians actively want to be part of Western institutions of their own free will which they surely will now in the wake of Russias aggression ?

What then ?
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There is no such thing in this case of any "irrespective of the US or Russia."

The Ukraine would have to be insane to be irrespective of the USA or of Russia.

And I totally disagree that the Ukraine would now be against Russia based on Russian aggression as that too would be insane.

But for a direct answer then "no" the Ukraine has no free will to be hostile with its huge neighbor Russia, and the Ukraine has no free will to align itself to the hostile warmonger nation of the USA against Russia.

It would be like a small town neighborhood where the next door neighbor wants to bring in a violent child molester and expect all their neighbors to accept it as their free will - well no.


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Simpleχity;1064243337 said:
So powerful that the ruble is virtually a worthless currency beyond the Russian borders...

Ruble Sinks to Six-Week Low After S&P Downgrades Russia to Junk
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Not everyone knows this but the USA has orchestrated the fall of oil prices as a way of hurting Russia because of the Ukraine.

It is a clever tactic perhaps, but it is failing to remember the lessons of history, in that the USA put such embargoes on Japan in the 1930's and then Japan finally sought its own relief by attacking Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and thereby declaring war on the USA.

So if we really succeed and push mighty Russia into such a corner then we are risking everything based on our own warped political agendas.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
There is no such thing in this case of any "irrespective of the US or Russia."
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Of course there is ! So basically you are denying 58 million Ukrainians right to self determination then. How noble

The Ukraine would have to be insane to be irrespective of the USA or of Russia.
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No she would just have to disagree with you

And I totally disagree that the Ukraine would now be against Russia based on Russian aggression as that too would be insane.
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Well I think it would be 'insane' for it to be anything else. A point that would be blatantly obvious to any objective observer of events

But for a direct answer then "no" the Ukraine has no free will to be hostile with its huge neighbor Russia
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When did Ukraine initiate hostlities with Russia ? Are Ukrainian troops on Russian territory ?

, and the Ukraine has no free will to align itself to the hostile warmonger nation of the USA against Russia.
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The Ukraine has the free will to align herself with whoever she wishes irrespective of your desires

It would be like a small town neighborhood where the next door neighbor wants to bring in a violent child molester and expect all their neighbors to accept it as their free will - well no.
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Or like a country exercising its free will. Ever imagine for a moment that maybe everyone isn't quite as xenophobic as you ?
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
The Russians accepted an independent Ukraine COMBINED WITH an empty verbal promise from the US that it would remain independent and not become a satellite of NATO.

I'm sure the Russians are kicking themselves in the arse for having believed the US government. They have now learned the lessons the Native American Tribes all learned in previous centuries--the US government goes back on its word as a matter of routine.
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Sure, once Russia not only annexed Crimea (arguably Russian to begin with, and should be a seperate issue from Donbass), but then moved on Donbass, it is not surprising that Ukraine, a nation of 45 million facing territorial losses to a nation of 145 million people (Russia) went looking for allies like NATO. I dont blame them.

Your reference to an "independent Ukraine" is very accurate. Russia's goal is not the occupation of two rust belt provinces. Rather, Putin's goal is to turn Ukraine into a Russian protectorate. Ukraine needs to fight in the Donbass, because of they dont, the same combination of "little green men", volunteers, mercenaries and vacationing Russian regulars is going to be in Kiev by late spring. The only way for Ukraine to stay independent is to fight in the Donbass now.

Henry David said:
Infowars has a short clip from Ukraine, and a fast walking soldier in a Ukranian uniform speaks American English to the reporter, asking her to 'stay out of my face, please'. Probably just a Blackwater mercenary, but certainly an American carrying an AK.
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Or, maybe just an Ukrainian American volunteer. One Ukrainian American West Point graduate was killed fighting as an ordianry infantryman in a volunteer batallion.
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
Infowars has a short clip from Ukraine, and a fast walking soldier in a Ukranian uniform speaks American English to the reporter, asking her to 'stay out of my face, please'. Probably just a Blackwater mercenary, but certainly an American carrying an AK.
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Infowars bwhahahaha thats says it all.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Cryptic said:
Your reference to an "independent Ukraine" is very accurate. Russia's goal is not the occupation of two rust belt provinces. Rather, Putin's goal is to turn Ukraine into a Russian protectorate.
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Or failing that keep the war going on ad infinitum, making sure never enough troops get introduced to be decisive. This avoids further sanctions against Russia but more importantly keeps Ukraine politically and militarily destabilised. Its incapable of moving any closer to joining any western institutions while that state of affairs continues. Obviously an all out invasion by Russia would have huge political and economic consequences for the fragile Russian economy so this current state of affairs represents for it the least worst option.

Ukraine needs to fight in the Donbass, because of they dont, the same combination of "little green men", volunteers, mercenaries and vacationing Russian regulars is going to be in Kiev by late spring. The only way for Ukraine to stay independent is to fight in the Donbass now.
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That term 'vacationing Russian regulars' really is a classic ! :lol:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Or failing that keep the war going on ad infinitum, making sure never enough troops get introduced to be decisive. This avoids further sanctions against Russia but more importantly keeps Ukraine politically and militarily destabilised. Its incapable of moving any closer to joining any western institutions while that state of affairs continues. Obviously an all out invasion by Russia would have huge political and economic consequences for the fragile Russian economy so this current state of affairs represents for it the least worst option.



That term 'vacationing Russian regulars' really is a classic ! :lol:
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Is there a difference between "vacationing Russian regulars" and Blackwater mercenaries.
90+% of Blackwater (z) business is contracted by the Pentagon.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

DaveFagan said:
Is there a difference between "vacationing Russian regulars" and Blackwater mercenaries.
90+% of Blackwater (z) business is contracted by the Pentagon.
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When applied to the Donbass, yes. Any possible Blackwater contractors showed up with, well, only their knowledge. Meanwhile vacationing Russian regulars have shown up with tanks, air to air missiles, apcs, artillery, and an endless variety of rocket launchers.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Cryptic said:
When applied to the Donbass, yes. Any possible Blackwater contractors showed up with, well, only their knowledge. Meanwhile vacationing Russian regulars have shown up with tanks, air to air missiles, apcs, artillery, and an endless variety of rocket launchers.
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Isn't it astonishing what these regulars can get in their suitcases whilst 'vacationing'. I bet that put them over the 20 Kilo limit at check in though ! :lol:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Cryptic said:
When applied to the Donbass, yes. Any possible Blackwater contractors showed up with, well, only their knowledge. Meanwhile vacationing Russian regulars have shown up with tanks, air to air missiles, apcs, artillery, and an endless variety of rocket launchers.
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I'm sure any US mercs showing up are funded from the recent US Congress
vote to supply lethal and non lethal military aid to Ukraine. Mercs would for
sure fit into that category. Plausible deniability, don't ya' know?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

DaveFagan said:
I'm sure any US mercs showing up are funded from the recent US Congress
vote to supply lethal and non lethal military aid to Ukraine. Mercs would for
sure fit into that category. Plausible deniability, don't ya' know?
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So far the only ones 'showing up' have been in some comically fake Russian propaganda videos made last March
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

DaveFagan said:
I'm sure any US mercs showing up are funded from the recent US Congress
vote to supply lethal and non lethal military aid to Ukraine. Mercs would for
sure fit into that category. Plausible deniability, don't ya' know?
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If there are US supplied advisors in Ukraine, I doubt they would be US in origin. Rather, they probably would be Polish. Poles not only have the motivation, but they also have to a far larger degree, the language skills and cultural understandings make effective advisors to the Ukrainians. US commanders also gave Polish units high marks in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Polish government has denied that there are Poles fighting / advising in Ukraine either unofficially or officially. The rebels claim otherwise. One thing though, is that there have not been any fatalities returned to Poland. Unlike Russia, Poland has a fully free press and such burials would be alot harder to conceal.

My guess is that western supplied contractors in Ukraine are few in number. Ukraine's biggest need is for advise in effective and decisive command and control, not advisors as ground fighters.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Of course there is ! So basically you are denying 58 million Ukrainians right to self determination then. How noble
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It is realistic, whether it is noble or not.

No person is an island - LINK, and no Nation can act in direct hostility to its neighbors without expecting resistance or worse.

If the USA was really trying to help out then we would be mediating between the Ukraine and Russia in a friendly way, but instead the hostile USA is trying to pull the Ukraine under our American control in hostility to its neighbor Russia.

As such the USA is the unwelcome intruder who has no business in that area.

If Russia came here and tried to get Mexico to cut ties with the USA and to become hostile to the USA then we would never accept that, and the same is true for Russia about the Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
No person is an island - LINK, and no Nation can act in direct hostility to its neighbors without expecting resistance or worse.
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As per the UN charter and the Budapest memorandum signed by Russia in 1994 Ukraines right to self determination is not negotiable and Russia (not the US who was also a signatory) is in direct contravention of both. For the umpteenth time when did Ukraine attack Russia ? Defending ones territory from attack does not represent direct hostility against anyone but the attacker unless you also deny the Ukraine that fundamental right too.

If the USA was really trying to help out then we would be mediating between the Ukraine and Russia in a friendly way, but instead the hostile USA is trying to pull the Ukraine under our American control in hostility to its neighbor Russia.
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For the umpteenth time. What if Ukraine wants to be part of Western institutions of its own free will.? Its getting tiresome repeating myself here
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
So, as far as I understand your knowledge of Russian was a bit exaggerated.
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Oh I've visited your country too on a number of ocassions and am well acquainted with just how paranoid your people still are about the west
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
For the umpteenth time. What if Ukraine wants to be part of Western institutions of its own free will.? Its getting tiresome repeating myself here
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What if, what if. Revolution and civil war is not free will.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
What if, what if. Revolution and civil war is not free will.
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They don't want you back comrade and I know this from first hand experience
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Oh I've visited your country too on a number of ocassions and am well acquainted with just how paranoid your people still are about the west
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Thank you. Though I'm not sure how this statement linked with the question from Fallen about opposition media in Russia.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
They don't want you back comrade and I know this from first hand experience
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I've already explained you - you simply don't understand these people. Your knowledge is superficial and simplified.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
I've already explained you - you simply don't understand these people. Your knowledge is superficial and simplified.
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Why is yours better ? Have you ever been there ?

I understand them well enough to know that your mechanised and heavily armed 'vacationers' will have pushed public opinion against you there forever. There will be no turning back after this so your only hope is to send more of your 'holidaymakers' to 'correct' them in their view
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
As such the USA is the unwelcome intruder who has no business in that area.
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Wrong as usual. The Ukraine government welcomes any and all US and EU assistance against blatant Russian aggression. Per Ukraine's declared desire to turn Westward, Western countries have every reason to be there and help Ukraine become a contributing member of the Western community of nations.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Why is yours better ? Have you ever been there ?

I understand them well enough to know that your mechanised and heavily armed 'vacationers' will have pushed public opinion against you there forever. There will be no turning back after this so your only hope is to send more of your 'holidaymakers' to 'correct' them in their view
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Of course I've been there. Long time ago but anyway. I have some acquaintance in Kiev.

And I know what they told you about Yanukovich.
They told you, confidentially: Look, flogger, this is pure mob... The mob rules our country...
And so on in the same style. ;)
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Russia may help Ukrainians of conscription age avoid army service

ST. PETERSBURG, January 26 /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday that Moscow might extend the period of sojourn in Russian territory for Ukrainians of conscription age who can be drafted into the Ukrainian army.

“Many people, by the way, do not want to be mobilized. They are trying to move into Russia and lie low for some time. And they are absolutely right because they are simply being sent under bullets like cannon fodder,” Putin said.

“Under a new law, Ukrainian citizens cannot stay in Russia for more than 30 days. After that they have to return to Ukraine where they are being caught and sent under the bullets again. That is why I think that we are going to change something in that law”.

TASS: Russia - Russia may extend sojourn for Ukrainians of conscription age
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Yury Biryukov, the Poroshenko's assistant has written in his FB:
In Ivano-Frankovsk oblast 57% of persons liable for call-up who recieved notifications have not come for medical examinations.

In Ivano-Frankovsk oblast 37% of persons liable for call-up who recieved notifications left territory of Ukraine.

Mayors of 14 villages in Ivano-Frankovsk oblasts refused to take notifications about mobilization.

Mayors of villages in Ternopol oblast sabotage the work of military registration offices. When the army representatives approach villages - the mayors inform the locals to help them to hide.

The mayor of Konyukhy village reported the locals rented two buses and left towards Russian Federation.

In the town of Kolchino of Trans-Karpathia oblast only 3 men of 103 recieved notifications. The others are absent.

For the last 30 days 17% of all persons liable for call-up passed the border of Chernovtsy oblast. Reportedly the hotels and hostels of neighbouring Romania are full of fugitive conscripts.

In Volyn oblast 19% of those ones who recieved call-up refused from military service due to religious reasons - even though in previous years this index was not more than 0.7%.
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Later mr.Biryukov deleted his post, but information was spreaded by media.
 
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