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U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
No Russia tried to stop Ukraine joining the EU and then potentially NATO. In polls before this happened well over 80% of Ukrainians were in favour of EU membership, this situation was intolerable for Putin who told his corrupt 'poodle' Yanukovych to do a complete U turn against the wishes of his people. The rest as they say is history
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Sure, but what the US should have done is taught them how to have an electoral system. This is what, like the third "revolution" in 15 years? They want democracy, but not if it means having a functioning system, so they sieze power a la Bolshevism. Put back together exactly as it was would mean the same thing in another 5-10 years.

In some ways, Putin removing the Russian influenced areas is a present to the rest of Ukraine. They would never have to worry about Yanukovich again.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more



What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today :(
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You're right, they don't want that anymore than Kennedy wanted Soviet missiles in Cuba. They've already lost Poland and the Baltics.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

rocket88 said:
In some ways, Putin removing the Russian influenced areas is a present to the rest of Ukraine. They would never have to worry about Yanukovich again.
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What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.
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Himself, yes. But the idea of another election in which someone from his party and social milieu could win isn't really very helpful to Ukraine. The only way to stop that would be to remove civil rights from whole areas of the Ukrainian populace who favor that, or to seperate them from the rest of Ukraine.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
What makes you think Ukrainians worry about Yanukovich? Yanukovish is the smallest problem that Ukraine faces now.
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After what Russia has done it would now take a miracle for any pro Russian government to ever get elected again in Ukraine. Putin knows this too and that is why he must keep this war going. The last thing he wants is a situation where theres any kind of political stability and the Ukrainians are free to vote on their own destiny. They will obviously be pretty desperate to join NATO now after what has happened to them
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
By all means provide evidence that the only reason the protesters faced down Yanukovych's guns was because Washington stuffed their pockets with dollars when I suspect guns might have helped them more
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So, you suggest me to provide evidence how the most sophisticated and skilled secret service works? I think this is impossible until this secret service itself decides to tell us what happened and how that was.

We had to wait for 60 years to find out how CIA overthrew Iranian prime-minister Mossadeq for his sympathies towards Soviet Union.

In declassified document, CIA acknowledges role in '53 Iran coup

Shortly after Mossadegh's election, the CIA began to plan his overthrow. The goal of the coup was to elevate the strength of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and appoint a new prime minister -- Gen. Fazlollah Zahedi.

Before the coup, the agency -- along with the British Secret Intelligence Service -- helped foment anti-Mossadegh fervor using propaganda, according to CIA documents. "In Iran, CIA and SIS propaganda assets were to conduct an increasingly intensified effort through the press, handbills and the Tehran clergy in a campaign designed to weaken the Mossadeq government in any way possible," Wilber wrote.

On August 19, 1953, the coup swung into full effect as the CIA and British intelligence agency helped pull pro-Shah forces together and organized large protests against Mossadegh.

"The Army very soon joined the pro-Shah movement and by noon that day it was clear that Tehran, as well as certain provincial areas, were controlled by pro-Shah street groups and Army units," Wilber wrote. "By the end of 19 August ... members of the Mossadeq government were either in hiding or were incarcerated."

In order to provide Zahedi, the country's new prime minister, with some stability, the "CIA covertly made available $5,000,000 within two days of Zahedi's assumptions of power."

In declassified document, CIA acknowledges role in '53 Iran coup - CNN.com
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By the way, doesn't resemble something?

flogger said:
What it boils down to in the end is that Russia doesn't want a US ABM site potentially stationed in Ukraine where it could wipe out Russias ICBMs when they are in their slow boost phase with their MIRVs and decoys undeployed. Given most of the Russian ICBMs are stationed west of the Urals this is a very real threat. Thats why this whole thing had to happen now before Ukraine joined the EU of its own free will and started down the path of closer integration with the West. Ukraines right to self determination obviously comes a long way second to Russias security interests in the Kremlin. Hence we are where we are today :(
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I agree this is the real threat and maybe this is the main reason why it all has happened. But I don't agree about Ukraine's "free will". As I've said above, free will of Ukrainians expressed at normal peaceful elections does not confirm your statement.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

rocket88 said:
Himself, yes. But the idea of another election in which someone from his party and social milieu could win isn't really very helpful to Ukraine. The only way to stop that would be to remove civil rights from whole areas of the Ukrainian populace who favor that, or to seperate them from the rest of Ukraine.
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And what does that mean? Apartheid regime? Dividing citizens on good ones, who votes for good parties, and bad ones, who can vote for bad parties (and hence must be deprived of civil rights)? Nice opinion.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
So, you suggest me to provide evidence how the most sophisticated and skilled secret service works?
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No I asked you for evidence the protesters were paid by Washington to overthrow their government

I think this is impossible until this secret service itself decides to tell us what happened and how that was.
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And I think you are peddling a load of conspiracy theory bunkum. The global political situation in the 50s is vastly different from that of today

I agree this is the real threat and maybe this is the main reason why it all has happened. But I don't agree about Ukraine's "free will". As I've said above, free will of Ukrainians expressed at normal peaceful elections does not confirm your statement.
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After what Russia has done the 'free will' of the Ukrainian people will see any pro Russian party face political oblivion from now on
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
After what Russia has done the 'free will' of the Ukrainian people will see any pro Russian party face political oblivion from now on
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You cannot know that. Don't be so self-confident.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

The Putin trolls keep growing on these threads. They must think that they are effective.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Heads up. I'm Scottish but I speak Russian as do 99% of Ukrainians
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If that is correct and the Ukraine speaks Russian then that is just a bigger tie there is to Russia and thereby the Ukraine is the business of Russia and the USA is way far out of line and out of place.

The USA might push around defeated Iraq and Afghanistan but for the USA to try being the Big-Daddy to Russia or to the Ukraine is completely insane.

flogger said:
Putin is the gangster in chief of a gangster oligarchy so to equate that with any sort of moral equivalency to the west is laughable frankly
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It really is absurd to me that Americans would laugh or even dismiss the Russian President who happens to be one of the most powerful positions on the planet earth, and I do not see Russia or the Russian President as secondary or inferior to the USA because reality declares otherwise.

And I say you are viewing "moral equivalency" is a very wrong way, as if you do not understand what "moral" means.

The USA is by far the most immoral Country on the planet earth.

The Russians are one of many peoples throughout humanity who keep the immorality of the West in check.

flogger said:
If it really wanted Ukraine so badly it could have gotten it for free 20 years ago so I really don't buy that argument
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I do not agree with what you are referring to 20 years ago getting the Ukraine for free - but my understanding is that after the USSR break up then Russia did not want to hold the Ukraine and Russia was accepting and empowering the Ukraine as a free Republic.

The thing that went wrong is that the USA (and Western imperialist) interfered in the Ukraine by orchestrating hostilities against Russia and that is what started the after effects which are still going on today.

If the USA had not created the hostilities and maintain the hostilities then the Ukraine would still be sound including their hold on the Crimea, because the entire problem was orchestrated by the hostilities of the USA.

This really is a repeat of the USA orchestrated hostilities in Georgia which forced Russia to react there too, LINK.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
You cannot know that. Don't be so self-confident.
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Having visited Ukraine many times and listened to their views I'm VERY confident of that
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Having visited Ukraine many times and listened to their views I'm VERY confident of that
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Nevertheless you are mistaken. And time will prove it.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
If that is correct and the Ukraine speaks Russian then that is just a bigger tie there is to Russia and thereby the Ukraine is the business of Russia and the USA is way far out of line and out of place.
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No Ukraine is the business of Ukraine .... not Russia

The USA might push around defeated Iraq and Afghanistan but for the USA to try being the Big-Daddy to Russia or to the Ukraine is completely insane.
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Given the Obama administrations reluctance to get involved in foreign entanglements. I suspect it really wants little to do with this issue

It really is absurd to me that Americans would laugh or even dismiss the Russian President who happens to be one of the most powerful positions on the planet earth, and I do not see Russia or the Russian President as secondary or inferior to the USA because reality declares otherwise.
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I'm not American so why would I care what they think ?

The USA is by far the most immoral Country on the planet earth.
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Oh I'm no fan of US foreign policy either but that hasn't blinded me from whats really going on here. Just assuming the US must be guilty of everything till proven innocent is not a credible debating position. I haven't let cynicism replace my objectivity and this whole business is Russias game

The Russians are one of many peoples throughout humanity who keep the immorality of the West in check.
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I'm not much of a one for moral crusades I leave that to the religious nuts

I do not agree with what you are referring to 20 years ago getting the Ukraine for free - but my understanding is that after the USSR break up then Russia did not want to hold the Ukraine and Russia was accepting and empowering the Ukraine as a free Republic.
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The Ukrainians overwhelmingly voted for independence. Russia lost them in 91 by democratic mandate

The thing that went wrong is that the USA (and Western imperialist) interfered in the Ukraine by orchestrating hostilities against Russia and that is what started the after effects which are still going on today.
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But what if Ukrainians of their own free will actually want closer integration with the West. Have you ever considered that ?
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
No Ukraine is the business of Ukraine .... not Russia
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It is NOT the business of the USA and THAT is the POINT.

Russia is on the physical border of the Ukraine and proximity matters, just as the USA is way far away on the opposite side of the planet.

If Russia was trying to stir up hostilities in Mexico then the USA has a vested interest with our own neighboring Country.

Whatever happens in the Ukraine is rightfully the business of Russia and absolutely NOTHING will change that glaring reality.

flogger said:
But what if Ukrainians of their own free will actually want closer integration with the West. Have you ever considered that ?
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I have considered that and no the Ukraine has no right and no business seeking nor accepting any hostilities from a foreign power as in the USA against Russia.

To do so is outrageous, and Russia is correct to react with military force and I am certain that Russia will escalate to the maximum - and rightly so.

When the USA had our neighboring Country of Cuba making its alliance with the USSR then the USA threatened nuclear war under the terms of mutual assured destruction.

If America doubts the resolve of Russia in the Ukraine then we are playing a fool who could get us all killed in lightning speed.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

JP Cusick said:
It is NOT the business of the USA and THAT is the POINT.
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It is Russian boots on the ground not American. It is Russian weapons that are being used not American

Russia is on the physical border of the Ukraine and proximity matters, just as the USA is way far away on the opposite side of the planet.
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It is Russia and not America that is in direct violation of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraines sovereignty and the integrity of its borders if it handed its nukes back to Russia for disposal. Ukraine upheld its end of the bargain

If Russia was trying to stir up hostilities in Mexico then the USA has a vested interest with our own neighboring Country.
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Do you have evidence that Washington paid the protesters to face down Yanukovych's guns ?

Whatever happens in the Ukraine is rightfully the business of Russia and absolutely NOTHING will change that glaring reality.
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Russia has had no such right since 1991. It is also in fundamental breach of the UN charter by taking this unilateral action. Thats the glaring reality

I have considered that and no the Ukraine has no right and no business seeking nor accepting any hostilities from a foreign power as in the USA against Russia.
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Really ? And when did the US get Ukraine to attack Russia ! :shock: What if the Ukrainians don't care what you want and vote to join western institutions anyway ? What then ? Are you trying to suggest they have no right to in case it offends Russia ?

If America doubts the resolve of Russia in the Ukraine then we are playing a fool who could get us all killed in lightning speed.
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I'm pretty sure the current US administration would be far happier if this whole conflict just went away. Your endless demonization of the US when its Russian boots and weapons that are on the ground and doing the killing is frankly incomprehensible

Hard evidence, the regular Russian army invades Ukraine | Conflict Report
 
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Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
And what does that mean? Apartheid regime? Dividing citizens on good ones, who votes for good parties, and bad ones, who can vote for bad parties (and hence must be deprived of civil rights)? Nice opinion.
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Exactly. Thus why allowing the East to go to Russia might actually help.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

rocket88 said:
Exactly. Thus why allowing the East to go to Russia might actually help.
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The problem there is that only 38% of those living in the contested areas of Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Russians so Putin would most likely lose any legitimate referendum on annexation.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
The problem there is that only 38% of those living in the contested areas of Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Russians so Putin would most likely lose any legitimate referendum on annexation.
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You emphasized several times you've been in Ukraine, you kinda expert. But you're so naive. You don't understand elementary things about Ukraine and Russia. Such as, for example, that any official figures of ethnical identification don't work directly. Self-defined nationality in the case of eastern part of former Ukraine doesn't mean some boundary that may determine political or social opinion. In cultural sense Russians and Ukrainians of Donbass are the same. You can't distinct them. Even more, the same people may call themselves both Ukrainians and Russians in different situations.

If you really understood people deeply, you would wonder why Slavyansk, the city with high percent of Ukrainian population became the center of rebellion.

And by the way, in Crimea Ukrainians are about quarter of population, not 2 percent as you said above.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
The problem there is that only 38% of those living in the contested areas of Donetsk and Luhansk are ethnic Russians so Putin would most likely lose any legitimate referendum on annexation.
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Maybe, but they've been unable to hold any kind of legitimate election in Ukraine since the USSR packed up and left. No matter who wins, the losers just have a "revolt." Clearly that 38% has enough clout to win elections from time to time.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

MrFirst said:
You emphasized several times you've been in Ukraine, you kinda expert.
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I've certainly never claimed that I'm an expert, just someone who's been there a lot and observed a lot too

And by the way, in Crimea Ukrainians are about quarter of population, not 2 percent as you said above.
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No you've misread that. I claimed the Crimea represented 2% of Ukraines overall population. In fact Crimea oblast has a 58% ethnic Russian population. The only region in the country where they outnumber Ukrainians
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Infowars has a short clip from Ukraine, and a fast walking soldier in a Ukranian uniform speaks American English to the reporter, asking her to 'stay out of my face, please'. Probably just a Blackwater mercenary, but certainly an American carrying an AK.
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

Henry David said:
Infowars has a short clip from Ukraine, and a fast walking soldier in a Ukranian uniform speaks American English to the reporter, asking her to 'stay out of my face, please'. Probably just a Blackwater mercenary, but certainly an American carrying an AK.
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Funny how these clumsy mercs always seem to break cover near TV cameras doesn't it ? :cool:
 
Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

flogger said:
Funny how these clumsy mercs always seem to break cover near TV cameras doesn't it ? :cool:
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The guy was in a pretty big hurry, walking somewhere. Clearly the lady with the microphone and her cameraman were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Or, maybe he was mad because HE was in the wrong place at the wrong time? ;)
 
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