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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I think its high time that NATO's position be heard for a change and these ongoing mythologies addressed. Here is a comprehensive list of rebuttals to Russia's claims

    http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm

    I might add further to that, in that you cannot be claimed to be threatening anybody by halving your armed forces and dramatically reducing defence expenditures over the last 25 years. Russia has done the opposite so who is it that is threatening who ?
    NATO claims.. what about claims by the West German Government and US went East Germany was allowed to move to the West.

    Another link.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Absolute nonsense. I notice you've dodged my question on Ukrainian security concerns again
    Nonsense.. read the treaty.. and I don't dodge.. I find it to be a half assed question.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    NATO's take on Russia's claims are rather different and are spelled out in very great detail in my earlier link. NATO has been significantly reducing its armed forces over the decades and Russian intelligence is doubtless well aware of this. This better explains why they are emboldened to act as they have been of late

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Nonsense.. read the treaty.. and I don't dodge.. I find it to be a half assed question.
    Only because you are dodging again. So what about Ukraines security concerns or can Russia get to keep killing Ukrainians irrespective them ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    NATO CHOSE to expand to Russian border.
    Put It in Writing
    How the West Broke Its Promise to Moscow

    Council on Foreign Relations
    Joshua Shifrinson | Why the West Broke Its Promise to Moscow on NATO Expansion | Foreign Affairs
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Put It in Writing
    How the West Broke Its Promise to Moscow

    Council on Foreign Relations
    Joshua Shifrinson | Why the West Broke Its Promise to Moscow on NATO Expansion | Foreign Affairs
    So where was Moscows promise not to attack or destabilize its neighbours ? Why are Moscows security concerns more important than theirs ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The Moscow Times | U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'



    Indeed. The rebels and Russia signed a document (The Minsk Agreement) which called for a ceasefire and a freeze on troop movements beginning at 1600 GMT on 5 September 2014. It was signed by rebel leaders Aleksandr Zakharchenko and Ihor Plotnytskiy and the Russian Ambassador to Ukraine Mikhail Zurabov. Russia also agreed in Minsk to pull all forces and equipment out of Ukraine. Toilet paper promises.

    Within the past two weeks, rebel forces supplied by and in tandem with Russian forces have launched a major offensive and have captured the Donetsk International Airport and ~500 sq. miles of additional territory. They have attacked on a curved arc beginning at Volnovakha in the southeast, north to Pisky, and east to Stanytsk-Luhanska. These forces now control 7% of Ukraine territory (besides Crimea) and 20% of the population.


    Rebel armored vehicles (supplied by Russia) move towards Slovyanoserbsk in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday 21 January 2015. (Boston Herald)
    That makes a lot of imperial sense. When you grab a region, you should occupy it. That is the old fashioned way of growing Empire.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    No, I said I understood why.
    The why is simple, Putin wants to enlarge his empire. The justification is just no there.

    Said Holy Roman Empire which is different then Roman Empire. Holy Roman Empire was born out of Treaty of Verdun in which separated Carolingian Empire into 3 parts.. but yes the Western Holy Empire also included large areas of this but.. what I am getting at is this.. Every damn country in the EU's former or active royal family all have lines that are pretty much one and it's based in the Holy Roman Empire structure. So for example..

    House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha: UK, Belgium, Bulgaria, and Portugal.
    House of Oldenburg: Norway, Sweden and Denmark. (Was last house of Russia).
    House of Orange-Nassau: Netherlands and former house of UK.
    House of Bourbon: France, Spain and a few other small areas.

    Then the big daddy of them all the Habsburg: Which had a ruler in every Duchy or Kingdom outside of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
    Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    They are not the same thing.
    However it does go to my point that borders have been fluid and to say a border today can/should be changed because of the past is just opening the floodgates to pandemonium.

    So you are telling me.. Ukraine gets EU membership, NATO membership and you think they would have honored the deal? Once you get membership you are golden and can tell Russia to bugger off.
    How would they do this? Since the west has honored its commitments elsewhere, Hong Kong for example was returned to China not held onto by the Brits, even though a large percent of the population there would have preferred that. So Europe and NATO are not likely to sanction the tearing up of such a deal, especially since it would require force to remove the Russians from Crimea. Then you have the Ukraine who regardless of NATO commitments needs the cash Russia provides to base their forces in Crimea. The suggestion that Ukraine might tear up the deal is moronic.
    Basically it belong sin the CT section with all the other tin foil hat ideas, sure aliens may be using the dark side of the moon as a base to secretly control us, we cant prove otherwise (they have cloaking devices) but it is silly to believe it is true.
    Last edited by Quag; 02-26-15 at 08:55 AM.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    You think Ukraine made money out of that lease? How about you read that treaty again.. Russia would sell natural gas/oil at a reduced cost for use of Crimea. Ukraine had to pay Russia for the natural gas/oil.
    At reduced cost so yeah it is in Ukraine's best interest to honor the deal.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    After multiple rebuttals of this and your continued multiple repetitions thereafter this is clearly just trolling
    The only thing that truly matters is how the crisis began and that beginning remains constant so the beginning is the FACT.

    Everything that happened after the beginning of the crisis is just the consequence of the beginning.

    So your rebuttals are invalid and the USA was instrumental in creating the hostilities in the Ukraine and that past history is the never changing FACT.

    The ends do not justify the means, so what came after it started is just the after-effects.

    The USA persuaded the Ukraine to act foolishly and then Russia responded accordingly.

    It is not right to blame Russia for what the USA instigated.
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