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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    A government who clearly only had themselves to blame. Even Yanukovych's own cabinet abandoned him at the end due to his corruption.
    Still doesn't matter. If you call for the rule of law, you have to accept the whole rule of law and the current Government in Ukraine is illegal by Ukrainian law. But pay no mind to those facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    That will be really reassuring for its allies given the current circumstances and the major draw down of US forces
    Outside of the US, US largest deployments are in (by size) South Korea, Germany, Japan, Kuwait, Italy, UK, and Spain.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I said they were the lowest military personnel numbers in over 100 years. The British army of the Rhine was disbanded just last year after maintaining a permanent garrison in Germany since WW2
    And you would be wrong. British Army of the Rhine was disbanded years ago (in 1994), the British created the British Forces of Germany in 1994 which was about half in size. What you keep ignoring is the West is going through a model change (US is doing it as well). British Government/Military has Army 2020 plan (PDF) and is taking shape similar to the US's idea of BCTs (Brigade Combat Teams).

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Far easier for the Russians to do with the same sort of modernized forces coupled their 850,000 men under arms. The US currently has only 28,000 personnel currently stationed in Europe
    It's actually harder for Russia. Russia has conscription in which only 1 year of service is required. So they rotate through a portion of military forces in the form of yearly conscription. As seen in Ukraine conscription is not the most effective fighting force. So while Russia modernizes it's forces (similar to the UK/US model) they are limited in professional career soldiers as of right now. Those in the Russian military with careers are officers and officers don't create a good fighting force. Rather it's the NCOs that do. Russia doesn't have a solid career NCO core. So as part of this modernization the Russians created a professional NCO corp and it's only a few years old and still far from being complete.


    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The Russians are talking up the NATO threat simply as an excuse to try and re constitute the old USSR. If we ignore this we only have ourselves to blame for what happens next given some of Putins threatening public statements and actions
    Last I check NATO is on Russia's border..
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Still doesn't matter. If you call for the rule of law, you have to accept the whole rule of law and the current Government in Ukraine is illegal by Ukrainian law. But pay no mind to those facts.
    Your opinion would hold more weight if you were a little more concerned by Yanukovych's illegalities. This guy skipped the country with billions. Do you think he was ever going to allow himself to be removed from that gravy train by democratic means ? He was modelling his regime on Putins and is now protected from prosecution by him for services rendered

    Outside of the US, US largest deployments are in (by size) South Korea, Germany, Japan, Kuwait, Italy, UK, and Spain.
    I've explained to you the reduction of EU defence spending and huge drawdown of US forces in Europe over the last 25 years. NATO is very much a diminished force that constitutes little threat to Russia today. I doubt though that the Russian people will be getting told any of this via their controlled media. Technology is indeed a force multiplyer but you still cannot invade territories using drones and interceptors whose numbers have also been reduced too. You need troops on the ground and those troops aren't there unlike Russias

    And you would be wrong. British Army of the Rhine was disbanded years ago (in 1994), the British created the British Forces of Germany in 1994 which was about half in size. What you keep ignoring is the West is going through a model change (US is doing it as well). British Government/Military has Army 2020 plan (PDF) and is taking shape similar to the US's idea of BCTs (Brigade Combat Teams).
    The latest figures I have for the British forces in Europe are 20,000 personnel in 2008 and there have been major drawdowns and base closures since then. It is planned to withdraw all troops by 2020 and doubtless the US will continue reducing its already inconsequential force too. We are not going to be storming Moscow with those sorts of numbers any day soon. Do you think Putin is unaware of this too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26710855

    It's actually harder for Russia. Russia has conscription in which only 1 year of service is required. So they rotate through a portion of military forces in the form of yearly conscription. As seen in Ukraine conscription is not the most effective fighting force. So while Russia modernizes it's forces (similar to the UK/US model) they are limited in professional career soldiers as of right now. Those in the Russian military with careers are officers and officers don't create a good fighting force. Rather it's the NCOs that do. Russia doesn't have a solid career NCO core. So as part of this modernization the Russians created a professional NCO corp and it's only a few years old and still far from being complete.
    Whatever its limitations it is still a vastly greater force than that which it faces. This phantom NATO threat is a paper tiger. It is one mans excuse to massage his ego at the expense of Ukraines national sovereignty integrity and self determination. We had an earlier guy who did the same sort of thing and we appeased him too. The results didn't go well

    Last I check NATO is on Russia's border.
    And Russia is on NATO's ..... unfortunately. Given whats happening in Ukraine you can understand now why many Eastern European states were so keen to join. A re emergent and vengeful Russia was what they feared and their fears were clearly warranted
    Last edited by flogger; 02-25-15 at 04:24 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Must be that new Math, don't ya' know. Poroshenko is in with 18% of eligible voters of Ukraine. Pretty simple.
    You've been given the actual OSCE electoral numbers so this is obviously just trolling now

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post

    Euromaidan overthrew a democratically elected Government.


    Memorandums aren't treaties, it's a note of record (political agreement), and that is all. EU even defines a political agreement expressed in principle, not as binding until vote. US could have pushed for a treaty and didn't because it wouldn't have passed the US Senate and US never gives explicit help (military) to anybody outside of NATO. That's what the word assurances are used and not guarantee.

    In 100 years? Pretty sure WW2 was less then 100 years ago.

    Cause the mechanism in which the UK's military is used? Western militaries have moved more and more away from "traditional" combat to asymmetric warfare and dynamic warfare where smaller is better in theory. For example.. today with the use of an Air Force that didn't really exist in WW2, the outcome of a battle can be decided with a squad size force. A battalion can do what it would take a division to do in WW2 with a few Apaches.

    Welcome to modernized forces.

    Because Russia is going through a modernization process? From 1991-1997 Russian spending fell by 8 fold and it's equipment became outdated and broken down. It's launched two programs to reequip it's military and modernize it. The programs started in 2007 and 2011 and will end in 2020. New tank such Armata and increase use of BMD-4 as part of that. Russia is reducing the size of it's personal, right now it's down to 850,000 in all branches.
    This is a well done posting.

    It has the basic facts along with the truth in detail and that is that.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    This is a well done posting.

    It has the basic facts along with the truth in detail and that is that.

    Where given I comprehensively rebutted each assertion made here ?

    Instead of gleefully indulging the myths about NATO perhaps you should check out the facts instead. Though I know of course that you won't

    http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm
    Last edited by flogger; 02-25-15 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Where given I comprehensively rebutted each assertion made here ?

    Instead of gleefully indulging the myths about NATO perhaps you should check out the facts instead. Though I know of course that you won't

    http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm
    Your "rebuttal" based on your opinionated facts are just rubbish.

    That link is no more credible then are your petty denials of the obvious.

    And we know that the USA including its puppet NATO have always lied to us (lied to the American public and to the entire world) so it would be up to the USA to give some kind of realistic proof as the only "facts" for us to believe. It takes real actions and NOT pompous words.

    The Republic of Russian is taking the real actions and their actions are the facts which speak the loudest, while you and the USA are just preaching denials and empty words.

    The USA does not participate in the Ukrainian peace talks - why? the actions speak louder then any words, as it is the USA who does not want the peace because we are the instigators of the hostilities.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    Your "rebuttal" based on your opinionated facts are just rubbish.
    What a surprise !

    That link is no more credible then are your petty denials of the obvious.
    Ditto !

    And we know that the USA including its puppet NATO have always lied to us (lied to the American public and to the entire world) so it would be up to the USA to give some kind of realistic proof as the only "facts" for us to believe. It takes real actions and NOT pompous words.
    Please highlight the lies contained in the linked info

    The Republic of Russian is taking the real actions and their actions are the facts which speak the loudest, while you and the USA are just preaching denials and empty words.
    I bet you cheered on the bullies at school too didn't you ?

    The USA does not participate in the Ukrainian peace talks - why? the actions speak louder then any words, as it is the USA who does not want the peace because we are the instigators of the hostilities.
    And a partridge in a pear tree ..... Do you play any other tunes ?

    European defence outlays have declined significantly since the end of the Cold War. , Real defence expenditure per capita in NATO Europe has fallen to just over half the levels seen in 1990, and is down by more than a fifth since 2000. These long-term reductions were accelerated by the 2008 transatlantic financial crisis, as Western states slashed defence outlays further as governments prioritised fiscal consolidation. US forces stationed in Europe are now a mere 18% of what they were in 1990 too ergo NATO is in no position to instigate hostilities with anybody !

    You sir are a complete and utter waste of my time
    Last edited by flogger; 02-25-15 at 12:32 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Please highlight the lies contained in the linked info
    In this particular case then it is not so much of lies as it is the failure to tell the truth.

    It is mostly lies by omission, and lies by half-truths, and lies by subversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And a partridge in a pear tree ..... You sir are a complete and utter waste of my time
    Yes of course - how dare I mention a peace process!

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Cusick View Post
    In this particular case then it is not so much of lies as it is the failure to tell the truth.
    Cite an example of this then ? Dismissing NATOs policy viz Russia out of hand just because you say so doesn't cut it I'm afraid

    It is mostly lies by omission, and lies by half-truths, and lies by subversion.
    Example ?
    Yes of course - how dare I mention a peace process!
    What peace process ? There is no realistic peace process until the Russian bully is stopped. Nobody has yet found the intestinal fortitude with which to do so.

    We must arm Ukraine now rather than just wringing our hands waiting for Putins next victim to be selected
    Last edited by flogger; 02-25-15 at 12:48 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    The US has no interests in peace. It pays it lip service, and some are gullible enough to believe the cheap talk. Actions speak louder than words.
    Right now it seems that Russia is the one that has no interest in peace.

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