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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

  1. #781
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Really ? This is part of the EUCOM Humanitarian assistance programme and involves all arms of the federal government

    Past projects have included:

    Flood relief in Poland, Serbia, Albania and Moldova
    Water pumps in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Romania
    44 school renovations
    28 hospital/clinic renovations and equipment upgrades
    33 emergency services/water related upgrades
    Oh, look at the countries listed.. Romania, Poland, and Albania are NATO countries. Moldova, Serbia and Bosnia are all members of the Individual Partnership Action Plan which is the first step in joining NATO. Only one of those 3 that seem less likely to join is Serbia but that can change.

    I said from the start, US military budget spending isn't done from the "goodness" of it's heart. These spending programs are always the first step in getting them NATO ready.




    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    But Ukraine wasn't just about to do that and had abandoned all pretense of joining in 2010 and 2 years after your long redundant article. Putin certainly knew this too so you can't somehow use it as an excuse for Russian aggression today. Perhaps you should get yourself up to date

    Ukraine drops 'unrealistic' plans for Nato membership | World news | The Guardian
    Under Yanukovych they passed non-aligned position in the Rada.. They were already approved for membership at the 2008 Bucharest summit but not at that time. Basically, you're in.. but you gotta wait a few more years. Yanukovych was elected and that changed the time line NATO was shooting for..




    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And with hindsight its a great pity for them that they didn't because 5000+ Ukrainians would still be alive today
    Not really, Russia would have done it in 2008 like they did in Georgia.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    These arm chair politicians have a better understanding then the senior fellow at the CFR. They're not going to have it. They are however going to continue to spit and sputter over Putin's response to the West in Ukraine, because, it's obvious, this should have been anticipated, and the WH failed to properly read the Russian mood on NATO expansion. Oh, and one more thing, they deny that it even was an attempt at NATO expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I've articulated it ad nauseam, you just fancy your opinion to it, so no, no more repetition. I'll leave you with your consternation and bewilderment at the brazenness of Putin to look after his countries interests.
    Obviously they are not arguing about the truth or the "FACTS" because the truth and the facts are against them.

    They are just trying to win win win, and to feed their egos about American superiority, and they can not face up to their very real shame.

    Link = John McCain: ‘I’m Ashamed Of My Country, I’m Ashamed Of My President, I’m Ashamed Of Myself’.

    So we are arguing against emotional immaturity which can never admit when they are wrong.

    Our USA and Europe are protected from our own stupidity because Russia and President Putin are acting like the mature adults standing against the stoiled children of the USA.


    ============================================


    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Russian tanks and troops currently occupy the Eastern Ukraine.

    In exchange for giving up nuclear arms the US promised the Ukraine that it would help protect the Ukraine's sovereignty. The Ukranian government is angry that the US hasn't done more.
    So calculate that as being two (2) idiots, the USA as idiot number 1 and the Ukraine as idiot number 2.

    1) The USA made promises which it can not deliver.

    2) The Ukraine is expecting things which it will never get.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    SIGNATURE: JP Cusick
    Mr. Know-it-all, sir.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    54.7 times .90 times .60 equals 29%. Fudge for the missing voters and you'll come up with 18%
    I know of a lot of transformations for numbers (e.g., add, multiple, etc.), but "fudge" is a new one for me. Regardless, your math is wrong even in theory.

    You don't have to "fudge" anything because by multiplying by .91 you actually have already accounted for the missing voters in the parts of the country unable to vote. Therefore, that ~29.8% would represent the percent of people in the country who physically and literally voted for Poroshenko.

    Now, let me try my hand at this "fudge" thing.

    .39 (the conservative estimate of the percent of non-voters in areas of the country able to vote)
    x
    .91 (the percent of the country in areas able to vote)
    x
    .547 (the percent of voters who voted for Poro)
    =
    .194 = 19.4% (assuming an equal variance in voting preferences between voters and non-voters in areas able to vote, this is the additional percent of people who would vote for Poro)

    .09 (% of people in areas unable to vote)
    x
    .547 (% of voters who voted for Poro)
    =
    .049 (estimate of the % of population in the areas unable to vote who would have voted for Poro)

    Therefore:

    19.4% (estimate of the percent of people who would vote for Poro in areas able to vote that didn't)
    +
    4.9% (estimate of the percent of population in the areas unable to vote who probably would have voted for Poro)
    +
    29.8% (actual percent of population who physically and literally voted for Poro)
    =
    54.1% (this number estimates the percent of the population of the entire country that would have voted for Poro had they 100% voter participation.)

    Is this what you mean when you say "fudge?"

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Oh, look at the countries listed.. Romania, Poland, and Albania are NATO countries. Moldova, Serbia and Bosnia are all members of the Individual Partnership Action Plan which is the first step in joining NATO. Only one of those 3 that seem less likely to join is Serbia but that can change.

    I said from the start, US military budget spending isn't done from the "goodness" of it's heart. These spending programs are always the first step in getting them NATO ready.
    You condemn aid programmes yet would appease armed aggressors. You couldn't make this stuff up !

    Under Yanukovych they passed non-aligned position in the Rada.. They were already approved for membership at the 2008 Bucharest summit but not at that time. Basically, you're in.. but you gotta wait a few more years. Yanukovych was elected and that changed the time line NATO was shooting for..
    There was never any chance for Ukrainian membership. Too many NATO members would have denied it

    Not really, Russia would have done it in 2008 like they did in Georgia.
    I think you really need to sort out your moral compass here

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    It already guaranteed it since 1997 without quibble when Russia was in a far weaker position militarily than today to respond to any default
    No, nothing was guaranteed. The first agreement was until 2017ish. Then the Kharkiv Pact went until 2042 and that was signed under Yanukovych and that pact barely passed. If Russia gave Ukraine's new government enough time to vote on it.. it would have ended the deal. To think other wise is foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Under Putin Russia has more than quadrupled its defence spending since 2000. Given that Russia now spends three times the EU average of its GDP on defence, who is the one now doing all the threatening ?
    Huh? Russia spends about $100b on defense. UK, Germany, France combined (just 3 EU countries) spend $160 billion. Russia has lower GDP then EU so it's $100 billion is a bigger % of GDP. But EU's 1.5% spending is almost double what Russia spends. Measuring GDP ratios one has to account for size of economy. EU's economy is $17 trillion. Russia's $4 trillion.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    NATO is a paper tiger due to its greatly reduced defence infrastructure over the years and I'm sure Putin is well aware of that fact. Thats what really scares me because any future conflict would have to go nuclear sooner rather than later due to the great disparity in conventional forces
    LOL, this has to be a joke. US does the work for NATO. US spending is in the $600 billion plus range per year.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    No, nothing was guaranteed. The first agreement was until 2017ish. Then the Kharkiv Pact went until 2042 and that was signed under Yanukovych and that pact barely passed. If Russia gave Ukraine's new government enough time to vote on it.. it would have ended the deal. To think other wise is foolish.
    The Ukraine did nothing to warrant this attack .Why bother making agreements at all then if you were going to use armed force all along. Let me draw your attention to another agreement Russia reneged upon.

    Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So much for Russian guarantees of Ukrainian sovereignty and integrity after handing Russia back its nukes in 1994. And one also has to say so much for US assurances to it in wake of what has happened

    Huh? Russia spends about $100b on defense. UK, Germany, France combined (just 3 EU countries) spend $160 billion. Russia has lower GDP then EU so it's $100 billion is a bigger % of GDP. But EU's 1.5% spending is almost double what Russia spends. Measuring GDP ratios one has to account for size of economy. EU's economy is $17 trillion. Russia's $4 trillion.
    The EUs defence spending is but a fraction of what it was 25 years ago. Militarily it would be hard pushed to defend itself much less threaten hostilities. UK is one of the highest spenders yet military personnel numbers are the lowest seen in over 100 years. Wheres the threat ?

    Military-numbers.gif

    Why then has Russias quadrupled since just 2000 ?
    Last edited by flogger; 02-24-15 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    You condemn aid programmes yet would appease armed aggressors. You couldn't make this stuff up !
    No, I only point out the fact you know nothing about how aid programs are done by the US. They aren't charity out of the goodness of the heart and never will be when it comes from Government. It's called the carrot and stick approach.

    And I never said anything about appeasing anybody. That's only for the English chaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    There was never any chance for Ukrainian membership. Too many NATO members would have denied it
    They all approved of it..just to delay it for a bit. You should read section 23. Or to help you out..

    NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.


    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I think you really need to sort out your moral compass here
    My moral compass is just fine. I am just stating a reality you are avoiding.. Ukraine joining in 2008, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2016 or whenever would have resulted in the same thing.. Russia taking over Crimea as Crimea means the world to Russia and has since Catherine the Great.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    On the contrary I've updated you on events. NATO membership was a long way off if ever for Ukraine
    NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.


    From Bucharest Summit 2008.


    Sorry, you can't update me.. when you ignore NATO's own joint statement on the issue.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    My moral compass is just fine. I am just stating a reality you are avoiding.. Ukraine joining in 2008, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2016 or whenever would have resulted in the same thing.. Russia taking over Crimea as Crimea means the world to Russia and has since Catherine the Great.
    No it wouldn't. As no agreement including all member states would ever have been reached, especially I suspect with France and Germany.

    Again though what about what Ukraine wants ?

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.




    From Bucharest Summit 2008.


    Sorry, you can't update me.. when you ignore NATO's own joint statement on the issue.
    Do you think repetition of a long defunct statement will somehow make it still valid ? I've already responded to this. The UK France and Germany rejected admission in 2008 and Ukraine withdrew from any further participation in this two years later yet you are still trying to use it to excuse Russian aggression today

    As far as current US forces in Europe are concerned

    Years of prior cuts and reshufflings have left the Army with about 28,000 soldiers stationed in Europe concentrated in seven major garrisons. At its Cold War height, the service had some 213,000 soldiers assigned to more than 850 garrisons, according to U.S. European Command.

    So again where is this threat to Russia ?

    http://www.stripes.com/news/already-...wdown-1.323124
    Last edited by flogger; 02-24-15 at 05:18 PM.

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