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Thread: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan' [W:479]

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I want to see photographic evidence of this invasion that you talk about. Remember that Russia had an agreement with Ukraine that allowed 25,000 + troops to be stationed in Crimea.
    Who removed their insignia left their bases and used their military force to take over the crimea.
    Even Putin admits this is what happened now why are you even trying to deny it?

    If these are the troops that you are referring to, it does not constitute an invasion.
    Yes it does.
    Same as if US forces left their bases in soem other country and used their military force to take over.
    Also, the Crimea voted to approve annexation with an 80% voter participation rate.
    After they were taken over militarily by Russia. Sorry no one considers any vote done at gunpoint to be valid.
    Poroshenko and our toadies are in charge in Kiev with an 18% of eligible voters approval. Kiev has increased energy prices, lowered pensions, cut employment, started a war causing the deaths of thousands, compromised the patrimony of the people of Ukraine, has not investigated the Kiev sniper deaths, the Hyrvnia has lost most of its' value, and much of the leadership depends on Nazi groups for muscle.
    None of that is any excuse for Putin to secretly invade and annex part of another country.
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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Poroshenko and our toadies are in charge in Kiev with an 18% of eligible voters approval.
    Nonsense

    May election Poroshenko 54.7% According to international monitors voter turnout was over 60% in the 91% of the country able to participate

    Ukrainian presidential election, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Nonsense

    May election Poroshenko 54.7% According to international monitors voter turnout was over 60% in the 91% of the country able to participate

    Ukrainian presidential election, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    54.7 times .90 times .60 equals 29%. Fudge for the missing voters and you'll come up with 18%

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    54.7 times .90 times .60 equals 29%. Fudge for the missing voters and you'll come up with 18%
    BS

    The voter turnout in the last US election was less than that in Ukraine even allowing for the 9% in the combat zones who couldnt vote so deal with it

    http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119271

    If you don't like the numbers then take them up with the OSCE monitors who collated them
    Last edited by flogger; 02-24-15 at 01:35 PM.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    One quite naturally proceeds the other. Pity you don't understand that.
    And yet still no explanation of how the EU equates to NATO, not all EU member states are members of NATO, not all NATO members are members of the EU, not all NATO members joined the EU before they joined NATO so you're just spouting absolute nonsense.

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I know the history of Guantanamo and it changes nothing, the twisted logic used by those who support Putin`s aggresion could easily be applied to the USA invading and annexing Cuba, there is no difference.
    Cuba WAS forced during an occupation to "lease" Gitmo, period. I am not twisting logic here. What was good for the goose should be good for the gander, right? If not.. US should be closing a **** ton of bases overseas. You know bases in countries the US fights some war. You know the bases in Korea, Japan, Italy, and Germany.. US never annexes land my ass.

    Btw, don't confuse understanding a position with support of an action. I understand why Russia needed to annex Crimea. Just as I understand why EU and NATO need to keep enlarging. I find both actions to be deplorable but again I find both sides to be a bunch of ass hats who want to stay in control in the 21st century instead of letting their "empires" decline or want to unseat the old guard just as the US kicked the UK of it's perch a little under a century ago.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Two wrongs do not make a right!
    How far do we stop going back in deciding national borders? 1945? 1939? 1918? 1914? those would be good times for Europe how about 117 AD when half of Europe was part of the Roman empire?
    As to Russian intrerests the Black sea fleet was never in any danger but if national intersets are all that count, your previous post about Guantanamo which was very weak and off point just got destroyed by this post.
    You cant argue 2 sides at the same time and expect anyone except Kool-ade drinkers to take you seriously.
    And I am not justifying any thing. All I am saying is if the position of the west is Ukraine is off limits to Russia, then the West should stop sticking it's hands in other countries as well. Can't preach Ukraine has a right, then muck about in some other nation like NATO countries and the West as a whole has been doing since Colonialism.

    Well considering EU borders are pretty much (minus the expansion into what is now the old Warsaw Pact countries) are pretty much the same as the were during the Holy Roman Empire, I'd call that already done.

    Really? So where did you destroy the US's own claim that Gitmo is in it's National Interests? Gitmo has been used by the US Government to dump people at so the American public doesn't ask too many questions.. be it Cuban and Haitian refugees, those refugees and asylum seekers who had/have HIV were put together at Camp Bulkeley and for over a decade after US courts ruled it illegal and hen you know Camp Delta. Reality is Gitmo for US Government is that legal gray area people love... since the US don't consider it "US soil" and not subject to the courts oversight the issues quickly died after some fake promises.

    So can you guarantee Ukraine was gonna honor the 2042 lease date to Russia? No you can't. Hence Russia's position.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    But the Ukraine wasn't joining NATO but the EU trading group as has been explained multiple times
    You are absolutely in denial of actual events. Ukraine already SOUGHT NATO membership once before and their app is still officially on file with NATO. All it takes is a NATO vote.

    You do realize Ukraine did seek membership after the Orange Revolution, right?
    That it was Germany and France that nixed it but the US, UK and Poland were gung ho over it. That even NATO Sec General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said.. "Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members"

    That membership wasn't taken off board but rather postpone..

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I seriously doubt that EU membership would have had any effect whatsoever on the Status of Russias Black Sea base. As the earlier linked Kharkiv accords illustrated she had the lease till at least 2042 and beyond
    You deal realize only 5 countries in the EU are not NATO members right? Of which 4 of them are neutral countries. They are Ireland, Austria, Sweden and Finland. In the Euromaidan Revolution Ukraine threw neutrality out the window. There was no way for Ukraine to move towards the EU with out NATO membership. To think otherwise is playing chess blindfolded.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    This is a load of conspiracy theory baloney that bears little relation fact
    Ah, yes it's some grand conspiracy to think Ukraine moving towards the EU and future membership wouldn't include NATO membership which they already have applied for and hasn't been rejected but postponed. Go stuff your face with some tea and biscuits.. Uncle Sam is always there protect you.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    So can you guarantee Ukraine was gonna honor the 2042 lease date to Russia? No you can't. Hence Russia's position.
    It already guaranteed it since 1997 without quibble when Russia was in a far weaker position militarily than today to respond to any default

    Under Putin Russia has more than quadrupled its defence spending since 2000. Given that Russia now spends three times the EU average of its GDP on defence, who is the one now doing all the threatening ?

    NATO is a paper tiger due to its greatly reduced defence infrastructure over the years and I'm sure Putin is well aware of that fact. Thats what really scares me because any future conflict would have to go nuclear sooner rather than later due to the great disparity in conventional forces

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    Re: U.S.: Putin's Peace Proposal for Ukraine is Nothing But 'Occupation Plan'

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    You are absolutely in denial of actual events
    On the contrary I've updated you on events. NATO membership was a long way off if ever for Ukraine

    That it was Germany and France that nixed it but the US, UK and Poland were gung ho over it. That even NATO Sec General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said.. "Georgia and Ukraine would eventually become members"
    You do understand I hope that all members would have to agree to Ukraines membership in order for it to happen. It doesn't matter what one or two members would like to see happen. That agreement was going to be impossible due to article 5 of the NATO charter

    You deal realize only 5 countries in the EU are not NATO members right? Of which 4 of them are neutral countries.
    NATO is a paper tiger thats in great danger of being burnt should the US renege on its future committment to it which I view as highly possible

    In the Euromaidan Revolution Ukraine threw neutrality out the window. There was no way for Ukraine to move towards the EU with out NATO membership. To think otherwise is playing chess blindfolded.
    Absolute nonsense . The EU and NATO are not inextricably linked in any way shape or form

    Ah, yes it's some grand conspiracy to think Ukraine moving towards the EU and future membership wouldn't include NATO membership which they already have applied for and hasn't been rejected but postponed. Go stuff your face with some tea and biscuits.. Uncle Sam is always there protect you.
    I think naked aggression should be faced down and appeasement of it avoided at all costs. I make no apologies for that stand based on historical precedent.

    Ultimately what about what Ukraine wants or doesn't that count ?

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